He certainly needs to start taking the line on more but even when he does, the pace just isn't there to get him through the gaps. There's numerous players who made breaks without much pace but Sam has never had to be one of those until now. He looks very tentative and we can only hope that side of his game comes on. If it doesn't then we're left with a player on huge money who simply isn't worth it. The rest of his game is good enough. His rugby brain is good, he was buying other players space (until last night) and he's been good defensively. He's a good organiser and a good passer but ultimately for the money him and Leuluai must be on combined we could probably put a tempting offer together for one of the worlds best halves!! (Not that they'd come).

Our recruitment strategy of bringing back all of our old boys isn't going very well and it's something they probably need to look at going forward.

Whether it's through injuries to key players, loss of form, lack of decent signings or lack of fresh ideas in the coaching department, I'd say the club looks at risk of stagnating.

Quite a few of our important players just haven't delivered this year, or having played to a level that you would expect from their status in the squad. Players like Sam Tomkins, Gelling, Leuluai, McIlorum, Tautai, Joel Tomkins, Powell, Isa, Sutton, FPN. Yes, a few of those have struggled with injury but sometimes you've got to make difficult decisions. Gelling I think is just unfortunate, but Joel Tomkins has been plagued with injuries, hasn't played particularly well since returning and is given a new contract! But Lenagan and Wane like him so of course he was brought back and of course they'll give him new contracts.

The policy of re-signing players who have left (Mossop, Sam, Joel, Burgess, Leuluai) has so far been a complete failure with none getting close to their old form. Think of some of the top signings we've missed out on to bring them back. 0 out of 5 seems a pretty bad return for Ian Lenagan's favourite policy.

People said Marshall hardly git a pass, but let's not forget he got a few hospital passes from ST in his own 20!
I felt for hm, actually, I thought he was one of our less bad performers. Watching experienced pros chucking the ball around like headless chickens in the last quarter, all too often into the hands of an opponent, was deeply depressing.

IL has been a great Chairman, transformed the club when he came in.

BUT, he has given Wane too much power, and we are now seeing the results of that.

Re-signing old boys that simply are not good enough, but because they're from Wigan and were at Wigan before they moved to more supposed lucrative deals, they are re-signed.

Turned the club back to the Noble mentality, and it's there to see every game..

Jobs for the boys big time

I agree with a lot of that but I'd leave Sutton out of it. He's been head and shoulders our best prop imo and is coming along nicely.

We need a change in mentality. We seem to be stuck in a mindset that we can just turn up for the last third of the year but we're not going to do a 2016 every year. I've made every excuse under the sun for the defeats this year and of course the injuries took a toll but since the Saints away game I think the players have been guilty of turning it in a little. They gave everything in that game and it seemed to be their last stand yet we lost a game we should've won and since the attitude has been soft. The defeats at Hull and Leigh were shambolic playing against sides with as many players missing as us and since that we were fortunate at times to get some wins. We begged Wire to beat us in the cup, we were so uninterested in the first 25 mins at Huddersfield it was embarrassing (in what I felt was our biggest league game of the year), we went to sleep against Widnes, we took 65 mins to put a decimated Catalans to bed and then came last night!

I still believe we're only a bit of tinkering away from being right in the mix for the lot next year but the attitude needs to change. We need a half with a kicking game, a prop with some go forward and more off the ball work in attack. I remember the early days of Maguire and even in Wanes first couple of years in charge and the movement around the ball was tough to keep up with. At the minute it's just side to side with no runners and no plans.

Pushed Sam Powell out of the way to play dummy half till SP told him to do one . Well done Mr Powell.

Regards , EW

Nicky the attitude has got to change towards the fans. We are taken for granted throughout the club. I couldn't give a rats arris about SOL 400th game after last nights performance but all SW t could comment on was how the players had let down Lockers on Wigan tv last night.

I think we need at least 2 props a centre and if ST can't cover the halves with an improved kicking game a top class 7. Id put TL at hooker with Ganson as his replacement in 2019.The problem for me is if IL doesn't recognise this now and actively recruiting then I can't see any decent recruitment for next year. I would offload MM, Powell, Isa, Flower and Gelling with thankfully Frank the soft arris already going. If we could I'd also offload JT but contractually that could be just a stretch too far for IL.

After improving the squad we need a drastic overall in style and tempo. We must be the slowest team at the Ptb in SL. I think SW is a top bloke but his time has reached its end point unless he can manage drastic changes but as much as I would love to think he could it I just don't see it happening.

I didn't go to the playoffs or GF last year in fact I stopped going after the regular rounds and it will be the same this year. I can't stomach the awful drudgery of wrestling, zero atmosphere and kick and hope kicking. I sincerely hope Cas win the GF by. 30+ margin against whoever they play then maybe the rest of SL will look to emulate their style rather than the sterile approach of all the other teams which is slowly killing the game along with rank poor administration.

Rant over over but unless there is some serious changes I won't be renewing my ST which I've held for many many years except for Nobles last year when I felt exactly the same as I do now.

When the big names are back..then you'll see the real team?

I dont know where that particular bit of nonsense came from,probably from the club and picked up by fans,it was always going to take time for them,butno the magic wand would be waved and all would be well...

Hard choices are needed,Joel simply should not have been given a new contract,half a dozen above average games this season after season of medicority simply didnt warrant it,MM just as in 2015 is drifting through games looking a shadow of his former self though after that injury he does without doubt have a valid reason,but will he ever be the player he was?,Flower just is standing still doesnt ever seemed to have kicked on after the GF fiasco and FPN simply should be bulldozing through yet isnt those are the ones along with another long look at Sam would be the ones i'd be looking to try and move on.

All sides every few years as we know need an overhaul i feel even with the success and more because of the success is the time to do it,they wont,they may win the CC and an elstoplast will be applied to the problem but this time next year unless something changes we will be talking about similar results and performances.

All so sadly true. A couple of years ago I would have been really looking forward to a home game against the Rhinos, but not now. And it's not the fear of defeat, it's the thought of us playing dismal footy against them.

So you basically want an entirely new team otherwise you're not going to renew your season ticket, what happened to ancient and loyal? I'm not happy with the rugby being played and would like to see some new faces (Hodkinson would be nice if true) but it's pretty sad to see fans saying they won't renew season tickets. If you can't support a team going through the bad then don't bother turning up to the Grand Finals!

I didn't go to the GF last year and IF we get to the CC I won't be going there either.
If you want to carry on renewing your ST good for you. This is the 4th season on the bounce we have played turgid rugby so even someone as ancient as me and historically pretty loyal finally says nah this isn't for me. I still want us win but the pleasure and more importantly the excitement of watching has withered and waned.
I want to renew but the thought of more Friday's sat watching basically wrestling just isn't compelling enough. I want some freshness in style, capabilities and standards.
If you're willing to accept the current standards again good for you.

Some valid points made throughout this post, as a newbie, I am glad to see it isn't just me that was bemoaning the performance on Thursday...the display was flat, no imagination or flair in attack and the defense on the first try was abysmal, TL was left stranded by Atkins' speed at getting up to PTB and ST/Gels put in next to zero effort in stopping Jullien. We actually looked physically unfit which is quite scary to say we've made bold claims about our conditioning levels opposed to other teams. My main gripe, is that even when it starts to go wrong in the game, when we get found-out or exposed, nothing actually changes, it's like Wane or his coaches don't actually change a damn thing, it's truly annoying...this sitting tight and trusting the tactics hurts my head! I cannot believe that Shaun Wane actually thinks or believes hes tactically superior to every coach he lines up against, he must agree that in certain games, against certain coaches he will need to change things.

The team on the whole look flat, we have scraped by this year and I for one don't see any success or growth from last year. Its a step back. Even if we progress past Salford in the CC, I feel Leeds/Hull will beat us easily (maybe not by huge points, but tactically) at Wembley...but maybe thats what needs to happen to see a change.

For mine, I feel like Sam needs to be honest with himself and the club, only he knows if he's struggling or feels like his injuries are holding him back, if they are then things need to change. Micky Mc certainly needs moving on, another with an injury that looks to have slowed him even further, there is no room for sentimentality in sport or business, Leeds have shown this with Maguire and we should show the same ruthlessness. I feel young Ganson could be a real star, along with Powell who does a great job. We cannot fill every position 1-13 with star quality, but we can have good, solid players running through the team. Unfortunately, Joel Tomkins has a new contract, not a savvy move in my eyes. I am unsure on Gelling, I think if the team became more attacking minded, and he has Dom on his flank, I can see him lighting up SL and being a regular 10+ tries a season centre, at present with the game-play we have adopted, he looks way below par.

I for one am delighted Castleford have run away with the league, the style and flair they show is a breath of fresh air and hopefully a wake-up call. I am equally hoping they make the GF as seeing them match up against an Aussie counterpart in the WCC will be a showcase. Sadly, the mere thought of us "at present" lining up against a Melbourne Storm or Cronulla is terrifying!

Hi Richie welcome on board.
Agree with all that you say. I keep conveniently avoiding the ST question but you are spot on it is a major factor if we can improve from our current state.
My rants are more in frustration and sadness rather than anger. We have some decent players in Farrell,Bateman, Williams, Gildart, Burgess, Manfredi etc with some very decent youngsters coming through the ranks. The attitude within the club of us against the world attitude and drudgery of style combined with lack of basic skills at for example play 6 just leaves me in despair at times.

He didn't go!