Quote: DaveO "Since that isn't the argument, you don't have a point here. '"
Yes it is.
Quote: DaveO "The argument that lead to this thread being started was that the league is a 27 round qualifier is of no meaning. That is the league in our current play off format is in its entirety, meaningless.'"
you contradict yourself in the same sentence. The league campaign has meaning, it is a qualifier for the play-offs. That is the meaning of it.
Quote: DaveO "So given in the old system a league is [inever[/i meaningless for [iany[/i of the clubs for quite some time it must be by your own criteria of "meaningfulness" the better system.'"
that seems a ridiculous conclusion from your previous sentence. There is actually no logic behind it just two statements which dont really bear much relation to each other. And again you contradict yourself. You state firstly that in a league system a game is never meaningless for any clubs, then go on to admit that for some clubs (in the majority of seasons that would be the majority of clubs) games are meaningless for some of the time (in the majority of seasons this would be for the majority of the time, for a sizeable proportion of the clubs)
Quote: DaveO "Of course if you want something to be meaningful for all the clubs using your criteria you ought to be arguing to include all the clubs in the competition not just 8, 6 or 5. So that would be a 14 team play off at the end of the season. I'd be interested to know why you think that might be a bad idea (assuming you do). It's the logical extension of what you are saying.'"
No, because that would make the league season 'meaningless' and possibly make your argument make sense. But as it isnt my argument, simply a nonsensical straw man you have created to strengthen your argument it isnt the logical extension of my argument.
It is quite obvious that there is a difference between having a qualifying competition that means most clubs, have a chance to qualify for the next stage of the competition, and keeps them interested in the competition and having a qualifying competition from which everyone has already qualified. You know there is a difference, its why you invented that ridiculous straw man.
Quote: DaveO "Given the play offs extend the season for two clubs by a grand total of one game you really are stretching it a bit by saying they are a means to keep it interesting for most clubs. The most games a team can play is four games by which team interest has ended for all bar one other club. Fans are also not thick and know if they finish seventh or eighth the can't expect to be extending their season much longer. The idea a short end of season play off does any better at extending the season in a meaningful way is crazy.
'"
have a look back at the Wakefield, Bradford, and Hull KR forums over the last couple of weeks of last year and see if qualifying for the competition wasnt the primary focus. Look at their forums now, and see if the minimum aim for this year isnt qualification for the play-offs. You are demonstrably wrong.
Quote: DaveO "Sport goes out of the window because we have to "keeps things interesting for more clubs". And you know very well a league decider could be the result of any two clubs facing each other. '"
a league campaign deciding the champions isnt the default situation for deciding champions under 'sport' outside of European football it is infact a minority way of deciding champions.
Quote: DaveO "What is funny though is you forget that league decider v HKR last year saw Wigan under the cosh and losing the game. It was in many ways akin to Man City's epic last gasp winner in Premiership soccer as Wigan had to come from behind and bust a gut to win the game and secure top spot. One of the most exciting games of the season so a pretty poor example to pick on. What that lead to of course was complaints we had tried too hard to win a meaningless competition and tired ourselves out just prior to the playoffs. Such is the negative impact of the current system.'"
And nobody cared, and nobody watched it. The league had a round left which without the play-offs, would have been entirely pointless and meaningless for the whole entire league and would have been entirely pointless and meaningless for all clubs bar two for a month and the season for all but 4 clubs would have ended in may.
Quote: DaveO "We also have the Challenge Cup (which has also suffered devaluation IMO in the face of the GF PR machine) that gives us the 70K+ crowds so that is not really a big argument in favour either..'"
Quite honestly, that is the poorest argument I have seen on anything, ever. Just because the challenge cup gets 70k+ attendances doesnt, in any way, mean that it isnt a very good thing that we get one for the GF too.
Quote: DaveO "It's quite obvious a league can and does deliver exciting competitions and that are the most legitimate way to decide who are the champions. However if you want a playoff and you don't want people to start thinking of the league as a waste of money and effort you need to change the system from what it is now to one that has far greater value on where you finish in the league not because someone says so but because it actually does.'"
Except it doesnt. If you want to judge the league by a different criteria to everyone else, that is fine, nobody is going to stop you. If you want to judge it by points scored, metres made, most 40/20's whatever that is fine, you are entitled to do so. But just because you say most consistent=best doesnt make it so. And just because you think that a league is the most legitimate way to decide champions, in spite of most of the rest of the world, including 7 out of the 10 biggest sports by average attendance and all 5 of the top 5 by total attendance, doesnt make it so.