Gildart Signs

Quote: Last Son of Wigan "Evening Phuzzy,

ok where to begin, well firstly I addressed how I don't feel being made captain is a sign of the best player, but I did, and will continue to play your game. Reverting back to 2006, you mention Fletcher as a better potential candidate, is this disregarding what happened during his short-lived captaincy of a terrible Souths side? When he was stripped of his captaincy due to racial abuse of another player? Dean Winders who later when on and played for Cas if I remember rightly. Yeah great candidate for a captain. Do you really want me to highlight why Dallas and Orr were also not selected as the captain?
Do I think Madge installing a leadership group over Lockers as a captain questions Lockers as a captain when Madge stated leadership in the team is an issue? Obviously! It directly relates to him! he was the captain!

Even though I don't think being a captain (in general) is a sign to suggest who's the best player on the team, I've just entertained your point.

Initially you criticised my post for lacking facts, so I did outlining all of Bateman's achievements already. (Which are more that Lockers had won at the same age)
The you criticised my post stating I was citing team successes not individual, so I pointed out Bateman's successes as players player and how Lockers failed to achieve person awards until he was 28 in the Dream Team, then you didn't like that.

I've countered all your points, and then some. So now (even though you like facts and not just opinion) you've merely listed a bunch of 'things' Lockers does better' and provided your own opinion on them with no supporting facts!

Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career.

Phuzzy, you're a decent debater, but at least play by your own rules

Firstly Mcguire did not cite lack of leadership as the thinking behind the leadership team but "to avoid overstretching any individual' and as a way of instilling responsibly throughout the playing roster. Telling, then, that he made O'Loughlin sole captain again the following season with this quote:

NEWS
Home . News . Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011
January 28, 2011, 00:00AM
Warriors Announce Captain For 2011

Wigan Warriors confirm that Loose Forward, Sean O'Loughlin, will Captain the 2010 Champions for Super League XVI.

The decision made by Head Coach, Michael Maguire, and the Senior Players in the squad sees Wigan reverting to having one Captain for the season but with the Leadership Group remaining strongly in place behind him to help and advise where needed.

Speaking about the decision, Michael Maguire, said:

"Having sat down with the Leadership Group to discuss the matter together, we decided to have a single Captain in Sean for this coming Season. The Leadership Group worked really well last season to help me effect the changes in performance throughout the Squad that were needed in our first year together and, further, gave a number of Senior Players the experience of leading the Team on match-day.

"However, the Wigan Squad now know that it is the responsibility of all the Players in a game to take charge and, whilst we will continue to use the Leadership Group in training, Lockers is seen clearly to lead from the front and was the unanimous choice to be made Wigan Captain for the coming Season 2011"
Doesn't really tie in with your spin on it now, does it?

However I don't really want to dwell on this too much. I was using the fact of his captaincy as a marker of his quality and nothing more. Whilst I agree the captaincy doesn't necessarily go to the best player (although it often does) it does always go to a highly rated player. Therefore as a means of dispelling the 'O'Loughlin wasn't a good player in his early days and only become a good player later in his career' it's a valid point. He was made Wigan captain at 23; the youngest captain in Superleague. Are you saying that counts for nothing?

It's also not true that I 'didn't like' you listing player's player (I'm not really sure why you word things in such a way to be honest but hey ho..) I was merely countering your fact by putting it in context, much as you sought to do with my captaincy point. How is it acceptable when you do it but implied as underhand or similar when I do it? You say argue by my own rules, yet don't follow your own advice! I've countered your player's player as you did my captaincy. Sounds fair to me.

i actually said upfront that the list of things was opinion and invited you to give yours. I wasn't, in this case, asking you to back it up but was just interested to see where we agreed/disagreed. There's no point arguing a case if we both agree on something! I'd still be interested to hear your viewpoint but it's up to you if you'd rather not say.

We clearly agree on your disclaimer so no need to add to that!

Today's game was magnificent, as was JB. As I've already said, I think he's a terrific player and no comparison to Lockers would change that view.

Not sure what you were referring to when you said "Always remember context, and where players have been played throughout their career". An explanation would be appreciated... As would these facts and figures I manipulated from previously. I still don't know what that was referring to either.

Keep 'em coming!