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Quote: Phuzzy "Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"


If that's the case, then 5 games isn't enough.

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Quote: Phuzzy "Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"

Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.

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It is quite lengthy

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998

Player plea:

Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.

The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.

In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.

The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.

• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.

• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.

• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.

• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.

• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.

• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.

• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.

• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.

• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.

MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.


MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.

MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:

Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:

The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:

20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:

The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:

5 matches
It is quite lengthy

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998

Player plea:

Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.

The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.

In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.

The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.

• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.

• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.

• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.

• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.

• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.

• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.

• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.

• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.

• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.

MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.


MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.

MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:

Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:

The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:

20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:

The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:

5 matches


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Quote: spartakmixtapes "Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.'"

I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".

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Quote: Phuzzy "I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".'"

I agree, just think we need to be careful not to infer premeditation.

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Quote: spartakmixtapes "I agree, just think we need to be careful not to infer premeditation.'"


to be fair i dont think many fans have. Knowles as with other players play the game hard, and at times right on the limit, and thus more likely to incur disciplinary actions

i know i watched it back 3-4 times, same as i did with the Smithies tackle and to be fair didnt see much wrong. However, i must admit i wasnt aware of the hip drop tackle / focus that has been placed on it in the NRL. It looks to me like the latest tackle that the disciplinary will focus on after the chickenwing, cannonball and crusher

i know over recent weeks i have read quite a few of the disciplinary hearing notes and found it interestin to see what the player & club see v the disciplinary panel, and how it is explained out

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Said for years that should a player deliberately injure his opponent which prevents him playing then the player who inflicted the injury should get a ban for the same time as the length of the injury.
That would change players' attitude towards their opponents.

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Quote: Father Ted "Said for years that should a player deliberately injure his opponent which prevents him playing then the player who inflicted the injury should get a ban for the same time as the length of the injury.
That would change players' attitude towards their opponents.'"

And that's why we need to be careful about saying Knowles "knew exactly what he was doing". I don't believe he "deliberately" injured Cooper and I don't think you can say that/prove that for the majority of foul play that results in an injury, most are lazy tackle technique or split second brain explosions.

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Aye, banning people based on them intentionally hurting people would be next to impossible to prove. Incidents like Flower on Hohihia, Westwood on Green, Newton on Gilmour and Long and Dudson on Johnstone are the types that could fall in to that category but not Knowles on Cooper. The issue with Knowles is that he’s putting completing tackles above players safety. There is a risk of injury in any tackle but he’s increasing that with his poor techniques, but you could never say his intention is to injure people.

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Quote: NickyKiss "Aye, banning people based on them intentionally hurting people would be next to impossible to prove. Incidents like Flower on Hohihia, Westwood on Green, Newton on Gilmour and Long and Dudson on Johnstone are the types that could fall in to that category but not Knowles on Cooper. The issue with Knowles is that he’s putting completing tackles above players safety. There is a risk of injury in any tackle but he’s increasing that with his poor techniques, but you could never say his intention is to injure people.'"

I was thinking in particular of Isaac Luke on Rangi Chase as a deliberate attack on a limb trying to injure the opponent.

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Knowles needs to learn to tackle properly, that way he wouldnt get banned as much as he does

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Quote: spartakmixtapes "And that's why we need to be careful about saying Knowles "knew exactly what he was doing". I don't believe he "deliberately" injured Cooper and I don't think you can say that/prove that for the majority of foul play that results in an injury, most are lazy tackle technique or split second brain explosions.'"

I think you equally have to be careful of mixing up "knew what he was doing" and "deliberately trying to injure" as they are not interchangeable. Maybe "knew exactly what he was risking" would be a better way of phrasing it. I believe he knew what he was risking by raising his legs but I don't for a second believe that translates into him deliberately trying to injure Cooper. However you can't accidentally raise your legs in that situation...it's a deliberate and conscious act... so, in that sense, he knew what he was doing (or risking if you prefer).

We should be careful not to hang, draw and quarter him for something he didn't intend (deliberate intent to injure) but, equally, the actions he did intend (recklessly risking another player's welfare) shouldn't be excused just because he didn't intent to injure.

It's a balancing act which I feel, in this instance, the tribunal have handled pretty well.

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I don't think that sort of thing goes through your head with that type of tackle. I genuinely think it's all about stopping the player that's getting away from you.

It carries a high risk of injury but I think it's totally different to a swinging arm or shoulder charge for example where you know what you're trying to do.

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Quote: Egg Chasing "I don't think that sort of thing goes through your head with that type of tackle. I genuinely think it's all about stopping the player that's getting away from you.

It carries a high risk of injury but I think it's totally different to a swinging arm or shoulder charge for example where you know what you're trying to do.'"

I disagree Egg. You definitely decide to put all your weight on someone. It's not an involuntary action at all. Let me put it this way. Next time you're with a mate grab him by the shoulders and tell him to start running. I absolutely guarantee that your feet will drag along the floor unless you purposely lift them. Similarly attempt to pull him down with your feet on the floor. Use all your strength. See if your legs accidentally pop up. Again, I absolutely guarantee they won't.

It's an action you have to decide to take. There's no question about that whatsoever. It's a simple matter of physics.

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You've misunderstood me.

I'm not saying you don't decide to lift your feet off the floor, I'm saying you don't think about the risk of injury. Your sole intention is making the tackle which as you say you're struggling to do.

With a shoulder charge or swinging arm your intent is to hurt your opponent (not to injure them btw) to win the battle.

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England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 6th Jul
NRL
LIVE
Canterbury13-12NZ Warriors
NRL
LIVE
Wests28-40Melbourne
NRL
LIVE
NQL Cowboys20-22Manly
SL
LIVE
Leeds17-16LondonB
WSL2024
LIVE
LeedsW6-16St.HelensW
WSL2024
LIVE
FeatherstoneW0-50WiganW
Fri 5th Jul
NRL 18 Cronulla16-20Gold Coast
NRL 18 Brisbane6-14Penrith
SL 16 St.Helens6-8Castleford
SL 16 Warrington48-0Huddersfield
SL 16 Wigan24-6Leigh
CH 14 Sheffield28-0Halifax
Thu 4th Jul
NRL 18 Parramatta16-32Souths
Sun 30th Jun
CH 13 Barrow0-36Wakefield
CH 13 Dewsbury12-38Bradford
CH 13 Halifax38-18Whitehaven
CH 13 Widnes16-24Batley
CH 13 York10-18Sheffield
L1 13 Cornwall10-16Crusaders
L1 13 Newcastle10-44Midlands
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 15 427 170 257 26
St.Helens 16 429 170 259 22
Warrington 16 406 213 193 22
Hull KR 15 383 201 182 22
Salford 15 295 288 7 20
Catalans 15 288 220 68 18
 
Leeds 16 291 286 5 18
Huddersfield 16 298 365 -67 12
Leigh 15 270 250 20 11
Castleford 16 246 435 -189 9
Hull FC 15 198 474 -276 4
LondonB 16 156 615 -459 2
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 13 486 142 344 26
Sheffield 14 382 217 165 22
Bradford 13 341 218 123 18
Toulouse 12 332 174 158 16
Widnes 13 315 245 70 15
Featherstone 13 330 283 47 12
 
Batley 13 205 286 -81 12
Doncaster 13 237 325 -88 11
York 14 285 293 -8 10
Whitehaven 13 266 358 -92 10
Halifax 14 270 405 -135 10
Barrow 12 203 339 -136 10
Swinton 13 260 332 -72 8
Dewsbury 14 168 419 -251 2
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