I don't have to look at it again.
You are referring to the push and shove incident some 25 meters back that was next to nothing and certainly not warranting a penalty against either player.
From there Flower chased the kick, was passed the ball and dropped it. At that point Hohaia, having run the 25 mtrs chasing Flower and not the play, smashed his elbow/forearm into Flowers jaw. Flower reacted as he did and was sent off.
Trouble is Hohaia was not sent off. What he did warranted a sending off in any game anywhere any time. The match officials both on and off the field messed up massively.
It is my personal opinion that Flower's sending off didn't lose Wigan the match it was equally just as much that Hohaia was not sent off when he should have been won the game for Saints.
Flower's sending off was the right decision, Hohaia not being sent off was the wrong decision.
IMO both teams should have been at 12 men for the remainder of the game.
We would then have had a good Grand Final and not the foregone conclusion that is was after 2-3mins,

Presumably by "push and shove" you mean Flower hitting Hohaia in the back of the head and knocking him to the floor?

Those blinkers are out in force here.

Are we really going over the Flower incident again?

So you feel that LH acted accordingly?

No. He wrongly escalated the situation and was very lucky to get the ban he did. I've said that already.

Hohaia should have been sent off.
He wasn't that was the difference.

I don't think any Saints fan would have too many complaints had Hohaia been sent off too.

As for it being the difference, I guess we'll never know.

No, I understand that. You have been balanced in your assessment off what I've seen and that's what I meant by being surprised you were peddling the opinion that Flower 'started it' (which was the red herring I was referring to). In the context of a game of rugby league, his actions no more started it than any of the other penalties given away could be said to have started it. An offence of the type he committed did not deserve Hohaia's response, just as Hohaia dis not deserve to be hit whilst on the floor for his. There is a level of acceptable behaviour that both players overstepped. The first instance of 'overstepping' was Hohaia's.

I agree mate. Hohaia escalated the situation beyond the reasonable. Perhaps I was being pedantic in saying "Flower started it." It was his action that triggered the events, perhaps that's a better way of putting it. But I fully agree that Hohaia took it to another level, as did Flower in response.

Still?

Surely discussing things like this in a reasonable, civilised manner is what these forums are made for? Fair enough if people start trolling and name-calling then step in, but that isn't the case.

We could always fill these boards with inane off-season tripe such as "who is your best ever winger with red hair" or "top 5 away kits" if you prefer.

I think I would prefer that actually rather than re-hash the Flower incident over and over. New thread agenda, answer a typical pre-season question and ask another. I'll get us started.

Ginger winger - Surely it has to be Brett Dallas. The guy had blistering pace, my favourite moment of his was when he chased down Mark Calderwood over the full length of the pitch to save a try. A greatly underrated area of his game was his ability to get a quick ptb as well, always got us on a roll when he returned a kick or took a scoot in. He didn't half take a lot of knocks to his cheekbones for his troubles though!

Who was the most improved Wigan player last season? (inc players who were at other clubs in 2013)

Dallas was a great player. David Hodgson is the only other ginger winger I can think of off the top of my head.

Dan Sarginson surely has to be the most improved? He was one under the heading of "potential" at London but by the end of the season he looked like a proper established Super League centre.

Damning Sarg with faint praise there, by the end of the season he looked like an international player, in fact he is just that.

But since we are being nice to each other. How about Jordan Turner? Early on in the season, some Saints fans had given up on him as a centre, then a change of position and hey presto, it looks like you have a player.

Haha don't be so defensive and touchy. I rate Sarginson very highly and I've said as much on several occasions. His form improved as the season went on, hence my comment. I don't think even the most blinkered Wigan fan would say he started the season as strongly as he finished it. It wasn't faint praise at all.

Turner had a good season in 2013, in fact he was named as our player of the year but he was decidedly average for the early part of 2014. His move to 13 (half back in reality) seemed to bring out some confidence in him and the added responsibility, that could have broke him, actually inspired some great performances from him in big games.

I still think he'll start next season at centre though.