Anecdotal, but it seems to me, even the relatively few number of years I've been going to the DW, that although there are still plenty of primary school kids, boys and girls (often taken by grandparents, by the looks of it), I don't seem to see as many in their teens and twenties as I used to.

Nobody’s saying Wire have been more successful on the field, they haven’t, but when you look at their squad to ours, in the last 2-3 years they look to either be spending more or have a larger squad of experienced players. They’ve just signed Luther Burrell who is due any time now, they seem to be on the up.

Either way, look at their website and there’s a 2019 handbook whereas if you want to find out about us then it’s 4 years out of date.

I’d rather have an out of date website and be champions that have an up to date website and go 60 years without winning the league....... just saying.

Wane massively overachieved when he was here, like a poster said the other day, he did so whilst the squad was being stripped. That just papered over the cracks of what is going on.

I disagree. Wane did his job, nothing more, nothing less. He was paid to coach a side to win rugby matches and we won the ones that mattered. That’s not over achieving, that’s being successful in your role.
To say the squad is being stripped is simply not right. Players will always come and go and we’ll never stop that. We’ve replaced Tomkins and co with arguably the best we could realistically hope for. We’re never going to attract top Aussie imports and up to now we’ve had two marquee players in a very large squad.
Perhaps a few on here need to manage their own expectations a bit better. We’re reigning champions!

To be honest, this is quite churlish. I hear your concerns and I share some of them, but to try to argue that our exceptional trophy success under IL and KR was somehow lucky and undeserved - and was all down to a remarkable coach - is neither worthy of you nor accurate.

If the current administration have had enough or have run out of cash, then maybe they should sell up. But let's not try to pretend they haven't done excellent things while they've been in charge.

Nobody can deny the success we have had on the field and we have to be grateful for that. I have actually said on other social media channels that I would accept a mediocre year or 2 of rebuilding, such has been the success we have been treated to in recent years.

However, the on field successes cannot excuse the apparent sloppiness that is creeping in off the field. We all want the club to be the best it can be and I take no joy in being critical of the club, but they need taking to task on things.

Anyone who is not concerned about the fall off in crowds / interest needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Looking after the little details makes a big difference.

Having said that, looks like a good crowd tomorrow.

What sloppiness off the field? I just can’t see it.
If you mean Hamlin and Mullen then that’s down to them as individuals and not down to the club who run monthly seminars to educate players re drug / alcohol/ gambling etc and have a genuine mental heath awareness program. They can’t be held responsible when they players go home.
If you mean Edwards, this whole saga is entirely down to him and is not of club’s doing.

I would say the squad was stripped, McIllorum wasn’t replaced and neither was Frank Paul Nu’uasala regardless of what people thought of him.

If you look at the last few years more have left than have joined.

2015 -

Ins - Tautai, Joel Tomkins, Mossop, Larne Latrick - 4 forwards.

Out - Blake Green, Goulding, Greg Burke (Loan), Jack Hughes (Loan), Scott Taylor (Loan), Gild Dudson, Jordan James and Eddie Pettybourne - 2 backs, 4 or 5 forwards

2016 -

Ins - Sam Tomkins, Willie Isa - 1 back, 1 forward

Outs - Joe Burgess, Ian Thornley, Scott Taylor, Jack Hughes, Larne Patrick, Ryan Hampshire (Loan) , Logan Tomkins, Connor Farrell and Matty Bowen. 4 backs, 5 forwards.

2017 -

Ins - Joe Burgess, Leuluai, Frank Paul Nu’uasala, Escare, Navarette, Forsythe. 4 backs, 2 forwards

Out - Dom Crosby, Lee Mossop, Josh Charnley, Dan Sarginson, Matty Smith, Ryan Hampshire. 2 - forwards, 4 backs

2018 -

Ins - Sarginson, Hamlin, Greenwood. 1 back, 2 forwards

Out - McIllorum, Gelling, Frank Paul Nuuausala, Joel Tomkins. 1 back, 3 forwards.

2019

Ins - Zak Hardaker, Jarred Sammut, Joe Bullock. 2 backs, 1 forward

Out - Sam Tomkins, John Bateman, Ryan Sutton, Hamlin. 1 back, 3 forwards

All in all, we never replaced McIllorum, Bateman or Frank Paul-Nu’uasala (Say what you want about his ability, I’m talking player wise or cap space). Plus, we are a marquee signing down, soon to be two as of next season, just look at the ins and out of the last few years and tell me we have t got weaker as a squad on paper year on year.

It might have something to do with the young lads aged 14-16 who are courted by the club in some capacity, treated like s**t and discarded which will leave a bitter taste in their mouths. You could potentially lose a generation of fans through poor management of whatever projects, schemes and pathways they’re working on, only thinking of maybe getting 1 future first teamer but losing 50 future fans. You’d have 30-50 rugby mad, Wigan mad lads aged 15-16 year on year falling out with the sport and the club because they’d been treated like a commodity, and discarded without a conversation or feedback.

Whilst that looks bad on paper you're completely overlooking the number of youth players that have come through in that time. You'd have to add the likes of Davies, Marshall and Willians, for example, who have all been first team regulars. If you always replace every leaving player with a signing then there is no room for the youth to come through.

Not 1 mention in any of those ins/outs of Davies/Marshall/Ganson/Wells/Paisley/Mullen/Gildart/Budgie/Williams (Ok last 2 was year before but they were just establishing themselves) etc.
Dom Manfredi/Ryan Sutton/Lewis Tierney/James Greenwood/Jake Shorrocks/Sam Powell/Gregson/Bretherton/Partington

Players coming through the youth

So although your NET count is -11 players it totally ignores the players that have played for the club that have come through the ranks and into the team that I would suggest Equal that amount? (Some still play for the club, some don't) but they still came through and played some part.

If we sign 2/3 more big names per season it SERIOUSLY affects our ability to make this system work.
And that system is One of the reasons we won SL in2016 despite an horrendous injury crisis
That system is one of the reasons we didn't end up in the Middle 8's in 17 when an even worse injury crisis happened yet we went to Wembley & were 1 game away from a Semi Final in SL.

I don't want to get back to the days of siging 2/3 Big name players and ignoring the Youth
Moran/Fletcher/Davico/Paleasina/Vaeliki/Scott Logan etc. signings all had Big effects on how we could run the youth system and retain certain players.
We didn't handle that very well

You have quoted a load of youth players that have either left, would have been on peanuts or both with the exception of Williams, Powell, Sutton (Who I mentioned), Burgess (Who I mentioned) too and Gildart. I’d say at present we are 3 internationals down from where we should be, with one of those being a marquee player. I’d say we need a second rower, a prop and a hooker at the very least.

To quote the mass signings of players, I’m against that as it takes time for them to gel like 2006 all over again, that’s why you gradually add to the squad but we have been a player shy each season for the past 3.

It’s not just players, we’ve replaced Mark Bitcon with Paul Johnson, surely a cheaper option?

You were talking about Ins & Outs whilst ignoring the 2/3/4 ins to the squad each year the youth system is providing.
That was my point

If you want to replace leaving players with like for like quality/money etc. wise then you may as well forget the youth as there will be no money left for them to progress on to.

Everyone fit and without the Hamlin issue I'm happy with our squad
(Bar Tony Club but that's a personal issue - And I am a big Sutton fan who a lot of the Loud Experts on here have done nothing but call for the last 3 years).

We have IMO one of if not the best 1-6 in the league and with a better platform laid by our 8-13 that have largely been missing the last 2/3 weeks and at other parts of the season I am convinced we'll be fine.

The trouble is that people who have been wanting things to go wrong get very vocal (Not accusing you personally BTW) when things do not go to Plan A and then want to Throw the baby out with the bath water and see it as some kind of justification of their irrational stance over the last 5 years.

In a previous thread similar to this I alluded to the marketing malaise and what's happened since Simon Collinson left as my biggest concern (Wish I could find that post).
And yes, I do believe there are major issues in that department.

But lets not forget that the same people calling Wane are not happy Now he's left.

The same people who slander and slag Ian Leneghan off, come up with malicious rumours and call him not fit to burn and Yet still want him to pump millions into the club (A lot of whom seem to me can't be arrised putting £20 into the club never mind £20million).

The same people slagging George Williams off as rubbish are slagging him off for going, if you don't like him why worry that he's going?

The same people who slag Budgie off for having the audacity to say in 1 interview (That's right, 1 interview, not over and over again as I have seen other posters describe it) that he would at some point like to give it another go, maligning the injury to Dom Manfredi and how terrible it is and how his career is threatened whilst not acknowledging that Budgie has just gone through the same thing and the same thing could happen to him tomorrow and his career could be over!!!!

Same people who slag Sutton off despite playing 150 games at prop for us by the age of 22 winning 2 GF's and a WCC - Now surprised that he's holding his own in NRL!!!

People slagging Gildart off last season because of some Social Media rumours that he was signing for Saints, before signing a 4yr deal, then criticising him because he has a couple of poor games despite him being one of THE BEST centres in SL and international at 22/23!!!
Also criticising him as though he doesn't deserve Good wages same as an overseas signing.

As for Mark Bitcon - I'm not sure how we could have kept him away from City - But then again some posters were questioning him at times over the last 3/4 years every time we got an injury crisis!!!!
Get Rid!!!!

If IL wants to cut his cloth he's quite entitled to (And given some of the stuff he's been labelled I wouldn't blame him) and until another guy comes along with 10/15 million and is prepared to put £2million a year in to get the same abuse then we'll just have to put up with it.
But be careful what you wish for, Short term Fixes don't always work.

And sometimes it's best to stay patient and Work through problem times not Knee Jerk and look for easy answers.

Jukesays - I’m glad Wanes gone, wouldn’t want him back no mater how bad things get. Despite being the most successful coach we’ve probably ever had the rugby on show was awful, don’t let the stats of winning big games distract you from the fact there were some very dull and low scoring games, he’s the rugby league equivalent of Tony Pullis. Though we are struggling and I’ll use the Castleford game as an example, that was the most I’ve been entertained in a long while even though we lost.

On another note, I’ve not slagged Lenagan off, but he needs to sort out who’s running the club because it isnt being run as good as it cold be. Instead of having jobs for the boys and moving everyone up and around within the club, bring in experts. If Williams, Lockers and Leuluai leave at seasons end there must be a lot of cap space available for your Cooper Cronk, I think only he could take Leulauis 7 spot and lead us around the pitch like Lockers does all in 1 package.