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Just my opinions unless it's a FACT, in which case it's a fact.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_74166.jpeg



The point about the extent of injury being taken into account is this
1) If you recklessly tackle someone in a dangerous manner then you are punished for taking the “risk” but luckily no injury caused so take this short ban as a warning about your technique/attitude
2) If you tackle as above and a significant injury is caused then that warrants further punishment.
Reckless means you are aware of the risk but take it anyway, it may be considered lucky that no serious injury was caused in scenario 1.
Logically you should probably receive the same severe punishment in 1) as in 2) but I imagine the outcry would be off the scale.
This is my interpretation, not the RFL’s.

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There’s only so long a repeat offender can drop ‘lucky’ that he doesn’t injure somebody as well. He’s caused 18 months worth of injuries, in the last 6 months, with the same tackle and I believe had a caution in between for the same offence. He’s been looked at 44 times in 5 years by the RFL (great stat from the new Wigan way podcast, that the unbelievably dirty, thuggish, Micky Mac has been looked at 43 times in 15 years). His punishments need to get heavier going forward if he doesn’t change his ways. He is putting players careers at risk.

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Good discussion, I have felt that bringing the result of the foul play into the ban was risky but, on reflection, it has to be the way. Would there be a legal issue here that the RFL would be liable if this was not the case?

On the specifics of the two incidents, Smithies hits Welsby across the back of the legs so is arguably less serious but deserving of a ban. Knowles fully swings across Cooper's legs (and for that matter, across his own players) so more serious?

Its interesting that the hip drop is now clamped down on and the tip tackle has fallen out of attention, time was any lifting of the hips above the shoulder was a pen or even a yellow. Are the RFL running the risk of having to police it again if a serious injury occurs?

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Don't know if anyone is interested or if you've moved on, but the minutes from the tribunal are up on the rfl website now, interesting reading.

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Quote: Fantastic Mr Catpiss "Don't know if anyone is interested or if you've moved on, but the minutes from the tribunal are up on the rfl website now, interesting reading.'"

Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.

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Quote: Phuzzy "Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"


If that's the case, then 5 games isn't enough.

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Quote: Phuzzy "Seems that the tribunal believe he knew exactly what he was doing. I'm guessing this comes from his previous. Not good if true.'"

Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.

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It is quite lengthy

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998

Player plea:

Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.

The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.

In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.

The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.

• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.

• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.

• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.

• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.

• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.

• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.

• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.

• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.

• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.

MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.


MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.

MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:

Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:

The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:

20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:

The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:

5 matches
It is quite lengthy

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... case=16998

Player plea:

Guilty
Summary of CM's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Following a Match Review Panel meeting held on 10th April 2023, you are charged with misconduct for a breach of Law 15.1(i) during the above match.

The Panel reviewed an incident which occurred at 1 45 53 Opta footage time of the above match. In the Panel’s opinion you have used your body to apply pressure to the leg of an opponent. The Panel believed that your actions were unnecessary, had the potential to cause injury and are against the true spirit of the game.

In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade D offence – Dangerous Contact - Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.

The normal suspension range for such offence is 2 to 3 matches.

• Match Review Panel reviewed an incident which occurred in the above match.

• The opponent Mr Cooper can be seen to take a carry close to the try line and is contacted by several St Helens players including Mr Knowles.

• The opponent breaks through the initial contact with Mr Knowles who has a hold of his upper body.

• Mr Knowles initially whilst maintaining an upper body grip, keeps his feet on the ground and moves with the opponent.

• The player then takes both his feet off the ground and his body contacts the opponent Mr Cooper leg.

• The opponent is in a vulnerable position.

• Mr Knowles actions are of a reckless nature.

• Opponent leaves the field and cannot bear weight on his leg.

• Grade D due to:
- Highly reckless act of taking both feet off the ground.
- Significant weight of player going through opponent’s leg.
- Opponent is in a vulnerable position and can in no way mitigate for the actions of Mr Knowles.
- Player is solely responsible for his actions.
- A serious injury has occurred in this instance.
Summary of Player's submissions on the Charge / evidence:

Player in attendance alongside Mike Rush (CEO) & Paul Wellens (Head Coach). Player pleads Guilty.

MR explained that the club were unsure if they were appealing the grading as this was the first time they had been involved in a hearing where medical evidence had been supplied, however, in his opinion the tackle was careless and not reckless.


MR believed that the footage showed that when MK puts his hands on the opponents shoulder his body twists, and this along with the contribution of two teammates was instrumental in adding momentum which caused the accident. Rugby League is a contact sport and accidents do happen, but in this instance the actions of MK were careless not reckless.

MK informed the Tribunal that there was never any intention to cause injury to the opponent. They are friends and he was gutted that his actions had resulted in an injury which could take 9-12 months before the opponent can be back in action.
Decision:

Challenging Grading
Reasons for Decision:

The Panel believed that this act was reckless and graded correctly at Grade D. The Panel do not believe that momentum was the reason Mr Knowles feet came off the ground, simply that he took his own feet off the ground causing a significant proportion of his body weight to then go through the leg of his opponent.
Decision On Sanction (where found to have committed Misconduct)
Summary of CM's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The Match Review Panel have removed the Penalty Notice in this instance due to the opponent sustaining a serious long-term injury where he will be out of the sport for a minimum of 9 months. The Match Review Panel believe while this offence itself is correctly graded as a Grade D; the injury surmounts to the sanction being increased outside of the usual 3 matches Mr Knowles would have received if a Penalty Notice had been issued in this case.
Summary of Player's submissions on the appropriate sanction:

The player says there was no intent to injure the opponent and is remorseful for his actions. The player states he has apologised to his opponent.
Aggravating Factors:

20/03/23 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/09/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
26/08/22 – High Tackle – 1 match
15/08/22 – Shoulder Charge – 1 match
18/07/22 – Dangerous Contact – 1 match
13/06/22 – Dangerous Contact – 0 matches
04/10/21 – High Tackle – 0 matches
Reasons for Decision:

The Tribunal are entirely satisfied that this was a reckless act. The matter has been referred to them as the Match Review Panel have withdrawn the Penalty Notice due to the injury sustained. The Tribunal agree that this has been graded correctly and these are exceptional circumstances. The Tribunal therefore determine that a 5-match suspension and a fine of £500 fine is appropriate instance.
Suspension:

5 matches


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Quote: spartakmixtapes "Its difficult to say "he knew exactly what he was doing" because its a lazy/desperate tackle technique in that the defender is usually in a beaten position in the tackle and chooses to use his bodyweight rather than strength to bring the player down. If he was doing those tackles in the first quarter of the game you'd have a point but they tend to happen later in games when discipline gets a bit ragged and players start to take short cuts.'"

I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".

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Quote: Phuzzy "I think the tribunal's point is, lazy technique or not, he knew what he was doing when he lifted his legs and that he was playing roulette with another player's welfare. They didn't accept that it was momentum that caused him to lift his legs but rather it was a deliberate act. They're not implying that he deliberately tried to injure Cooper. Just that he knew the risks when he took that action but did it anyway. That's why they called it "reckless" rather than "careless".'"

I agree, just think we need to be careful not to infer premeditation.

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Quote: spartakmixtapes "I agree, just think we need to be careful not to infer premeditation.'"


to be fair i dont think many fans have. Knowles as with other players play the game hard, and at times right on the limit, and thus more likely to incur disciplinary actions

i know i watched it back 3-4 times, same as i did with the Smithies tackle and to be fair didnt see much wrong. However, i must admit i wasnt aware of the hip drop tackle / focus that has been placed on it in the NRL. It looks to me like the latest tackle that the disciplinary will focus on after the chickenwing, cannonball and crusher

i know over recent weeks i have read quite a few of the disciplinary hearing notes and found it interestin to see what the player & club see v the disciplinary panel, and how it is explained out

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Said for years that should a player deliberately injure his opponent which prevents him playing then the player who inflicted the injury should get a ban for the same time as the length of the injury.
That would change players' attitude towards their opponents.

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Quote: Father Ted "Said for years that should a player deliberately injure his opponent which prevents him playing then the player who inflicted the injury should get a ban for the same time as the length of the injury.
That would change players' attitude towards their opponents.'"

And that's why we need to be careful about saying Knowles "knew exactly what he was doing". I don't believe he "deliberately" injured Cooper and I don't think you can say that/prove that for the majority of foul play that results in an injury, most are lazy tackle technique or split second brain explosions.

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Aye, banning people based on them intentionally hurting people would be next to impossible to prove. Incidents like Flower on Hohihia, Westwood on Green, Newton on Gilmour and Long and Dudson on Johnstone are the types that could fall in to that category but not Knowles on Cooper. The issue with Knowles is that he’s putting completing tackles above players safety. There is a risk of injury in any tackle but he’s increasing that with his poor techniques, but you could never say his intention is to injure people.

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Quote: NickyKiss "Aye, banning people based on them intentionally hurting people would be next to impossible to prove. Incidents like Flower on Hohihia, Westwood on Green, Newton on Gilmour and Long and Dudson on Johnstone are the types that could fall in to that category but not Knowles on Cooper. The issue with Knowles is that he’s putting completing tackles above players safety. There is a risk of injury in any tackle but he’s increasing that with his poor techniques, but you could never say his intention is to injure people.'"

I was thinking in particular of Isaac Luke on Rangi Chase as a deliberate attack on a limb trying to injure the opponent.

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LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
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Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 26 1010 262 748 50
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
Bradford 26 678 387 291 34
York 27 655 469 186 30
Widnes 26 551 475 76 29
Featherstone 26 622 500 122 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Swinton 27 474 670 -196 18
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
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