Would you give him a contract regardless of whether or not he wins us some silverware?

SW is a professional sports coach. He knows his fortunes rest in his own hands, and that ongoing success will guarantee him regular work but that he has to earn that success first.

The bit of the conversation you chipped in at is about whether or not he bullies players and the argument presented is that if he did, they'd be unlikely to want to come back here. As several have come back in recent times, voluntarily, that rather implies that he doesn't bully them - not to the ludicrous degree that some 'insiders' claim.

Surely it isn't a given that he has been/will be offered a new contract, if we don't win anything this season it would make no major trophies in 4 out of Wane's 5 seasons, including early cup exits to Cas and Hull KR. I'd hope IL is going to hold out until the end of this season (unless we win the cup). Having said that, isn't Wane on a yearly rolling contract after 2017 anyway?

League leaders' shield in 2012 also. So that makes 3 out of 5. still not great but perspective is needed; a bit more luck and he'd have two more Grand Final winners' rings.

He has kept us competitive despite losing our best players year after year and while we'd all like to see trophies every year, we don't have a devine right to win them. All we can ask for really is to remain competitive and if we do that, we will lose some (as we have the past couple of seasons) but we will win just as many.

I said major trophies. Teams set out to win the SL and the CC. The minor premiership is just that, minor. Two of the eight major trophies on offer during his four years isn't great for the resources he has had at his disposal IMO, but winning nothing this year (making it two from ten) should be enough to see IL make a change i would hope, particularly given the manner of our last two cup exits. Having said all that, hopefully we win one of the two this year and all is forgiven.

Even though some of his best 'resources' leave every year and a lot of the time aren't adequately replaced?

Had Wane kept a pretty settled squad since 2012 I'd be all for saying the time may be right for a change but he's had nothing but disruption. His squad this year is good enough to win something 'if' it's ever close to fully fit. If the injuries keep up though it'll be tough to make a judgment call on what sort of job he's done. To this point so far I actually think this may be his most impressive season as a coach.

I try to be positive and I can see where you're coming from. However I look at the overall level of SL and can't help but think they rest of the league must be terrible for us to be second in the league with the injuries and our style of play this year.

Does the fact SL this year is at an all time low talent wise mean Wane has done something wonderful? Not to me.

Do I think this group of players are capable of a much more expansive and creative style of rugby? Yes most definitely.

Do I think Wane is actually holding players back in favour of playing a structured numbers game thats like watching a game of chess? Yes I do.

I would love to have my changed about the above, I just want to watch entertaining rugby, I want to enjoy watching my RL. At the moment I don't enjoy it, it's watched out of loyalty rather than going to be entertained.

I think saying 2 of 8 major trophies isn't great is not only harsh on Wane & Wigan but also arrogant.

Leeds, St Helens & Warrington have a fair claim to hope if not expect to pick up a Trophey or two. Huddersfield in that time would probably have hoped to pick something up.

With only 2 tropheys a season available only a maximum of 2 teams can win one. I'd say 2 out of 8 when you consider the other teams who are also challenging isn't too bad.

I'm probably leaning more towards this sort of attitude at the minute, particularly as we have contested the last 2 GFs. I agree with Grimmy about the disappointing manner of the last two cup exits and I do think that another trophyless season will put SWs position further under the microscope but I don't think his future completely rests on it. I think the backroom staff is where we could possibly do with a bit of a shake-up more than head coach

It's a common excuse that players aren't adequately replaced but I disagree to be honest. The only examples I can think of where we haven't replaced an outgoing star with someone of similar quality were Carmont replaced by Thornley, Leuluai replaced by Smith (some would argue against this, but I really don't rate Smith) and S.Tomkins replaced by Bowen. Everyone else IMO was replaced by someone roughly the same or better either by a signing or an academy player.

Disruption-wise this is our fourth year with Charnley, Smith, McIlorum, Flower, Farrell and Lockers. Surely half your double-winning starters remaining the same for four years including your 7, 9 and 13 is hardly terrible. I don't think it's overly harsh to say he should have won more with what he's had, particularly as the quality of opposition has decreased in that period.

Well we managed two from four under Maguire, and Leeds managed four from the eight available during Wane's reign. Do we have lower expectations under Wane than we did under Maguire or than Leeds have had under McDermott? If so, why? We have always had a side similar in quality to what they had, but we have achieved far less. If four of Wane's five seasons seeing us not win the CC or the GF wouldn't be enough, how long would you leave it?

Don't get me wrong I've not got my violin out for him but it's not been straightforward for him. Most sides that dominate over a period of a few years keep a pretty settled team and normally a settled half back pairing. In Wanes time we've gone from Finch and Leuluai in 2012 to Green and Smith in 2013 and 2014 but in 2014 Sam Tomkins was replaced by Bowen and then Green left to be replaced by Williams for 2015. Add in the departures in that time of guys like Hock, Richards, Carmont, Burgess, Joel Tomkins etc and it's clearly not been ideal.

Moving on to this year, I think he's been provided with a squad he should win a trophy with. The thing complicating the aim though is the amount of injuries and the quality of those getting injured. If things carry on as they have been going then I don't really expect us to win anything because you can't have 7 or 8 internationals sat in the stands and expect to get trophies on the board. If we do get most lads back though prior to the real business end then I think Wane can be judged at the end of 2016 to some degree.

Yeah that's a pretty balanced opinion to be fair. I do have some sympathy with him this year with the injuries we have, but a big part of me thinks he has left himself in this position with those cup exits to Cas and Hull KR. He had a strong team at his disposal for both of those games but couldn't get the job done, those were the big failures. It doesn't help that he came after Maguire, who (IMO) had put us on a path to the sort of dominance Leeds have enjoyed. If Wane had come after Noble and achieved the same results I'd be a lot more hesitant.

With the squad and resources we have I have an expectation that we should offer a realistic challenge for tropheys and the hope that we might win one or both. To be fair to Wane he has delivered that every season.

I think it is arrogant to expect to win a Trophey when there are only two available each year with at least 4 teams who have a realistic ambition to win one.

It would be arrogant to expect one per year, but two from a possible ten wouldn't be good enough for me, we should expect more than that from the resources we have had. Even by your logic that would be less than our fair share. Aside from that, even if you only expect to compete well rather than win, does bowing out to Cas (QF) and Hull KR (Round before QF) constitute us offering a realistic challenge for the Challenge Cup these last two years?

I agree, at the end of this year Wane will of been in charge for 5 seasons, which is 10 trophies ( CC and GF) if you count league leaders then 15, but we'll just count 10, I'd expect around 4 trophies in that period, if we win 1 or 2 this season you have to say it's been fairly successful especially with the injures we've had, I have to give Wane a lot of credit for what he's done for Wigan as a club especially with the youth, but I think last year and especially this year, we've seen some of his tactics exposed and quite heavily on that matter. I often think of Wane as the Van Gaal of rugby, not the greatest manger but someone who will lay the platform for the future and I think although I do like Wane, if this season produces no trophies, then it's time for him to step down