Williams and Smith are both 7's by trade arn't they?

I didn't. As has been pointed out, even our 8 point lead was very much against the run of play. Leeds didn't have to be brilliant to beat us last night; they were the better side throughout.

I agree , stick Smith behind the current Saints or even Dire pack and the sky clowns would be christening him as the new Long/Edwards and championing him for the England 7 shirt again.

I cannot say that I was over enamoured when we signed Sean Wane as coach after Maguire. However I have been pleasantly surprised by what he has accomplished under the constraints that he appears to have.

For many seasons now, we have lost quality players and not replaced them. We cannot keep replacing players by youngsters especially in the pack where forwards don't come into their prime till their late 20's age group. The almost unique Wigan town conveyor belt of talent that has been running since the 19th Century is 'drying up' as youngsters play computers rather than play rugby.

Even from early in the 20th Century when we signed players like Lance Todd from NZ we have always had out of townplayers. Wigan RLFC always had the best of talent - and we got them.

Many on this forum have indicated that 'we are doing it on the cheap' and it is true IMHO. I am not one of those who are now pointing the finger at Waney as I suspect that more questions need be asked of what constraints Mr.Lenegan has imposed on Sean Wane ?

It looks like Sean Wane is operating under a diminishing quality of player, and with diminishing resources, to bring in what we need.
Supporters who pay good money to see their team, expect honest hardworking endeavour and we are not at the moment getting that.
None of us want to see us fighting against what could well be a relegation battle later in the year. But the way the team are playing at the moment, that is a genuine fear.The product on the field is woeful and Leeds last night were no great shakes either, they should have murdered us.

The pack, particularly the front row needs strengthening immediately. The half back pairing needs sorting, and Smith offers almost nothing apart from the odd kick. Bowen ought to be dropped. Replacing Sam Tomkins with Matt Bowen now looks like a real disaster doesn't it?

Put Gelling into the second row, as he is wasted at centre and drop Farrell. The pack needs to be 'beefed- up' before the halves can get really sorted. To put 'Rocky' Hampshire into the halves against Saints without a 'culture change' in the pack, will not be a good thing at all. He would get hammered.

Supporters are not interested in Wigan RLFC's bank balance being, I hear, £1 million in the black.

Oh for a Graeme West !

You don't half post some tripe. When on earth did we or anyone else ever in the history of this sport come to the conclusion that forwards are redundant? We are missing SOL, Flower, Crosby and Sutton plus MM was shown up by Logan. I admit signings like Patrick are a mystery and playing too many runts is hurting us but they are all still forwards for gods sake.

When did MM last do anything to remotely justify the "wouldn't swap him for anyone" approach Wane and Wigan fans have.

He is so limited it's untrue. Lives a charmed life too as seems to be completely impervious to criticism. Great gig he's got at Wigan.

Completely agree he's so average

the Wane game plan is to spread the ball wide irrespective of field position and at any time in a game, it's no wonder the props offer no go forward they hardly touch the ball, I'm not trying to say their world beaters by any means but the dumb game plan nullifies a forwards game. But at the minute we could do with simplyfying it and keep it tight in the middle, to try and gain some go forward and reduce the amount of errors where producing. Wane is clearly not getting the best from his players and is still trying to play a game plan that worked with a much better team of 2-3 years ago, if he had any idea he would adapt his game plan and tatics to suit his team he has at his disposal, but I don't believe he has the ability to change anything or knows how to.

The important thing to note in the SL stats is not the yardage each forward is making - but the [inumber of carries[/i.

When your front tier guys are making less than five hit ups per game your decision makers have - by definition - decided that forwards are redundant and are instead playing 'tick rugby'.

I've just had this exact conversation in the pub with the rugby lads this afternoon, most of whom are wigan fans.

One of them said "he's class." I asked him in what way, what does he offer. He stared at me for a few seconds and then said "he's hard as fu**."

For me that summed up what is probably the biggest myth in rugby league. McIlorum offers nothing as a rugby player but aggression in defence. However his missed tackles probably outweigh the impact of that aggression.

With ball in hand he is nothing. No better than your average Championship hooker.

He has bought the adoration from Wigan fans with his committed and whole-hearted displays and to a certain degree I get that; but when you break things down he's just an average player who masks his lack of ability with misguided and over-rated aggression.

That sounds very like Cunningham before his miraculous body change

Smith isn't the answer at the moment.
I'd put Willams at 7 and Hampshire at 6 but I know this will not happen.
It wouldn't surprise me if SOL plays at 6 when he returns which for me would be a very poor move.

Probably the worst comparison I've ever heard. Cunningham was class; one of the best in his position in the last 20 years without a doubt.
Same goes for Radlinksi, Robinson, Farrell (Andy), O'Loughlin before I get accused of bias.

But was he any good before his body change?
I compared MM to KC before KC put about two stone almost overnight. Before that he was average but worked hard a bit similar to your description of MM.

Unfortunately no one in cherry and white last night has what I would call a "rugby brain", only Locky seems to have it, Green had it and we desperately miss him, no more so than Farrell.

Smith should be taking control of these game but he doesn't have it in him.

Leeds were unbelieveable average last night and were there for the taking but that says more about Wigan at the moment I'm afraid.

Every single try Leeds scored was directly after an error or penalty by Wigan. The usual serial offenders (Farrell/Tomkins/Gelling) were at it again and need to be dropped.