stop getting your knickers in a twist, I can see what he is saying. He measures progress by tangible achievements (ie trophies) and not simply by league position which means nothing in RL due to the way the league is structured (with playoffs and a grand final).

Put it this way. (example) If you finish 4th this year and win the GF, but next year fnish top and win nothing, you could arguably say that you made no progression at all if trophies is how you measure progress.

It's all in the interpretation. I'm sure BK will agree that Wigan are better off at this stage of the comp than last year, but that will count for little if Wigan fail in the Playoffs.

Likewise with Warrington. If we fail to win any silverware this year whilst gaining our best league finish for quite some time, some may argue that our progress has stalled, though our consistency has improved.

I'm not sure a group of people debating a point where they have different opinions is getting your knickers in a twist, but anyway.

If you want to measure success by trophies then thats fine, but by that argument you could say that, I was as good at Rugby League as Wigan, because I didn't win the challenge cup and I didn't win the league. Which is definatly wrong. League position means little in terms of silverware, but it is a good record of how you have performed over a period, and if you are higher up in the league this season than you where at the same point last season then you have performed better and therefore made progress surely.

I cannot agree that the only way to measure progress is by winning trophies. There are only 2 trophies up for grabs ( 3 IF you include the hubcap). Does this mean that only 2 teams can make any progress in a season? Leeds won the Grand Final last season so do they have to win both the Grand Final and the Challenge cup to progress this season? Same with Wire, do they have to win both to show progression? I am sure that any Wire fan would say they have progressed as a team this season even if they fail to win a trophy.
Similarly if a new team got a franchise ( ie Widnes/Halifax/Leigh etc) and they finished in the top half of superleague in their first season do you not agree that that would be progress? I am sure their fans would! OK trophies mean success ultimately but progress can be made without them.

And they'd be completely wrong, because even a blind man can see that Warrington are a far better team this year than they were last year, regardless of last year's CC victory.

Anyone who doggedly sticks to silverware as a benchmark of progress is being extremely blinkered - to the point of actually being silly.

No-one is saying that finishing top is the be-all and end-all, especially as current SL culture doesn't regard this as any kind of achievement. Winning silverware is the ultimate goal. No-one would deny that. But it's not the only goal. Not winning silverware doesn't mean that, as informed fans, you can't assess your teams strengths and weaknesses, compare them to those the year before, and conclude that you've improved.

You don't even have to be informed to see that both Wigan and Warrington have made massive improvements on last year. Every aspect of both teams' play is clearly better than it was in 2009. And in Wigan's case, this has happened with almost exactly the same team as last year, so that can't be ANYTHING but progress.

Progress itself can be a long-term thing. You don't have to progress from being a bunch of mid-table strugglers to being a trophy-winner in one season. In fact, it's pretty difficult to do that. That's why, at the start of this season, most Wigan fans said they'd like to win something, but mainly wanted to see a big improvement in the team, as it boded well for the future. They know that Rome wasn't built in a day.

Anyone who stubbornly denies this, purely on the basis that Wigan haven't won anything yet, is either trying to make a point about something else, or being daft.

For the record. I believe Wigan and Warrington will both have made great strides this year. Silverware or not.
I was just saying some people base it on trophies in the cabinet only.

The person you were agreeing with bases his arguments on something entirely different, i.e. not looking foolish - as he was extremely and very vocally doubtful about the appointment of Michael Maguire.

I'm afraid I think that's all there is to it.

Excellent post.

I defy any real supporter of the game to say that Wigan or Warrington haven't kicked on from 12 months ago. Considering each side has finished in the top 4 only once in the past 5 years shows how important the stability that's come this year is.

I suppose Chelsea would have to win the FA Cup, Premier League and another cup to have progressed next year?
Using silverware as the only measure is too simplistic.

It's quite amusing how some read into posts to gather what they want to see, rather than what is actually there.

I measure by RESULTS. I didn't mention "silverware", yet some on here cite it as if I did, and the usual sheep follow blindly.

You simply cannot use our league position as evidence of improvement as the season isn't over yet.

The rules of the competition ensure that it is vital to peak for the playoffs. There are obviously more ways than one to achieve that.

As for the, frankly ridiculous, suggestion that I would be happy to see Wigan lose games in order for me to "prove a point" on an internet message board to some faceless characters.............I mean really................

If a car is going round a track and in year one it takes one hour and comes in 3rd place but in year two it takes 58 minutes and comes in 4th place has the car improved?

Bit of a strange analogy, but I would argue no it hasn't relative to the competition.

In much the same way that our team in the "Great Escape" year would wipe the floor with a dominant Wigan team out of the 1970's.

under which rules as you know its virtually a different sport these days with all the rules that have changed since, do you think that team would wipe the floor with the team from the early 90's? As the rules are similar and there is a gap.