How can you relate this scenario to what itchy said?

because a nurse and a patient are both people so makes no difference

It's an isolated story, you don't need to listen to it, just like the one from the other day when someone told you that 95% or whatever of people in ice etc were unvaccinated and you just dismissed it.
Despite other stories from other people in similar backgrounds an cir umstances saying the same, and the facts WLA posted that were just washed over.

I don't really know ow how to word this, and tried to stay out of it last week or so but here goes.

What actually, plainly and simply put, is it that you and the others are saying?

Do you agree vaccines work? Because at the beginning of this 40/50 pages ago, I thought that was what the discussion was about? And since then the goalposts seem to have been moved a few times

In relation to what Pieman responded to itchy regarding this particular part

A recent review from Cambridge highlighted that in hospital you have a significantly higher chance of catching covid from another patient rather than a nurse, doctor or porter etc. The chances of getting the virus from say a nurse are exceptionally low.

His response that his sister caught it from another nurse has no relation to the above. Which, in relation to the last couple of pages and to be clear I don’t agree with mandating vaccines for NHS staff or anyone for that matter. Quite a few pages ago people quoted that they had never said they wanted mandatory vaccination, I disagree now given the last few pages.

Regarding any ‘facts’ or figures that anyone posts, well, anyone can post whatever stats they want and manipulate data whatever way to suit their narrative, it doesn’t tell you anything without any context behind it.

Finally, and to summarise and answer your direct question, yes, I believe vaccines do work, what I don’t believe however is that vaccines are the right thing for everyone and everyone should have the right to decided if or when they get vaccinated.

Maybe now you will answer my question that I asked a page or so ago which everyone has washed over which was.

Would you decline medical attention from an unvaccinated nurse or doctor or ask them if they are between now and the date they are due to get sacked or if sanity prevails and it gets delayed or better still removed altogether.

My eldest daughter is a senior Practice Nurse. When we discussed the subject of losing jobs for the unvaccinated in the NHS she said "let them find other jobs then"
When I asked her about those who were medically exempt her reply was quite simple "There are hardly any reasons for not having the vaccine"
She has been heavily involved in the organisation and implementation of the vaccination programme.

So basically if anyone else says anything that doesn't suit your arguement it's heresay, not really relevant, or twisted facts and figures.?

There was no need for any more context than what was given
You are vastly times more like to be seriously ill, or die, from covid without the vaccines cine than with it.
And as a slight aside no one ever said that vaccines stopped anyone from getting it or passing it on, but it does reduce the likelihood of transmission and getting it.

If I was dying I would get medical attention from a doctor or nurse with Ebola, doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer one that hasn't

I think I've seen one person say they would hold them down etc. And give them the vaccine, if that poster is half as perplexed as I've been I can understand their frustration.

But in reality that was 1 post, 50 pages past the original point, which I still can't get my head round because.you and quite a few.others seemed to be arguing differently back then, that vaccines do or don't work. Iirc there was.lots of counter arguments saying they didn't etc, and certainly in different age groups.

However if the argument had now come down to this last point then I'm fine and we can put this to bed hopefully

We have most people saying that everyone has the choice to be vaccinated or not?

Whilst we have a disagreement if employers/premise owners have the right to choose to employ said vaccinated/non-vaccinated

If that's the case, then I think we can talk for another 100pages on that 1 point.

I myself, as do 99% of people I can see on here (so don't make out that because 1.person said something we are all for mandatory vaccinations for all) are all for choice.

But we have a split on whether businesses, health sectors rtc. have the right to choose whether to employ them? Or let them into their premises/events.

And if that is the case, then its a thousand miles from were the disagreement was 30 pages ago. Funny how goalposts move

ok so youve a less chance of catching it from a nurse, maybe because most are vaccinated and practice proper safe hygiene and practices plus PPE, ill answer your question I would if I knew......

Gosh she doesn’t sound very pleasant or understanding. Sorry!
Thought nurses were supposed to be caring?

Okay, so we are 61 pages in now and I have read every post (more fool me) but can anyone tell me what is the actual point of the thread and what is the debate about as I am really lost with it all now.

Are we objecting/supporting the vaccine, or is it about mandatory vaccination, who has lied about what, or is it one of those threads that someone starts to see just how long they can keep it going.

Someone please put me out of my misery

It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers.

Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way.

Have I summed it up ok for you?

I have no idea, but it's almost as good as the Phil Bailey thread.

Same here - Hence why I keep asking for a simple statement as to what peoples issues are put as simply as possible (But I don't seem to get a reply)
Right at the beginning it seemed to be the argument was about whether Vaccines worked etc. and if there was any deviation from that it was about whether Younger people should have it.
IMO - I think the evidence has proved that it works (And before anyone jumps down my throat and quotes "X" have died etc. that have been vaccinated, Yes we know, but statistically you are many times less likely to be seriously ill/die if your vaccinated in all age groups).

There seem to be some people upset about the Government lying (I would say yes they are liars and there's no-one hates them more than me - However being liars and corrupt about one thing doesn't mean they are that about everything)
Some people seem to think that the MSM (Still can't believe I've used that phrase again) are scaring/lying etc. - when in reality it seems to be that people on either side of the argument tend to be ok with the MSM saying things if they agree with them, yet go apoplectic if they don't agree with it! Cheap argument IMO
There seems to be a split in the above were some people are getting info from other sources, that people like me aren't as trusting with and in a lot of instances (Again I will stress IMO) are nut jobs and equally if not more lying/pushing their agendas

The question now seems to be about Mandates etc.
99% seem to be in agreement that they shouldn't be mandated - however a split over if companies/sports clubs/health organisations have the right to mandate for employment

I'm a little bit in the middle on this - however if I have to come down on side, I'd say that I think those organisations have a right to employ/admit who they want - We can't claim freedom of choice one way and not the other.

Quote: muttywhitedog "It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers. Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way. Have I summed it up ok for you?'" Much better than me Maybe Eric Clapton does have a point? The irony of claiming people who get the vaccine are hypnotised whilst ignoring how his own theories and ideas are obtained & distributed is astounding IMO. Josh Rogan etc being an example. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 9ab5f3095f I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Quote: muttywhitedog "It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers. Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way. Have I summed it up ok for you?'" Much better than me Maybe Eric Clapton does have a point? The irony of claiming people who get the vaccine are hypnotised whilst ignoring how his own theories and ideas are obtained & distributed is astounding IMO. Josh Rogan etc being an example. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 9ab5f3095f I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Ah right I see, so back on topic, I dont think it will impac the start of the season, im double jabbed and boosted

No, that’s not what I said at all, my point about facts/figures/statistics is that they can be represented whatever way you want to push a certain agenda. All that I have ever asked when people have posted them is to explain the context behind them and if people don’t know that and just post for the sake of it or because they found it in the MSM (I know you like that acronym ) then I can’t really comment on that information.

Take the “up to 90% of patients in ICU are unvaccinated” that’s a shocking statistic and headline to read but in the grand scheme of things it could be 9/10 patients in one hospital are unvaccinated and all other patients in all the other hospitals are. I am not saying that is the case but you get my point, that fact on its own tells us nothing.

I’m not really sure how I have argued differently before, I can’t recall I have ever said vaccines don’t work and my stance has always been I don’t think the vaccine is right for everyone. However, to be clear I have never once suggested to anyone to not get the vaccine as that would be hypocritical of me to do so.

Regarding employers mandating whether that’s NHS, corporate firms or Wigan Warriors I again don’t agree with that and is my opinion.