Nobody is writing them off Dave, just saying that a few of them need a rocket up their and get out of their comfort zones. We know they can play well, but the main ones been mentioned often than not last year didn't produce the level of performances we know they can. HH has a fantastic work rate but can offer more in attack, Joel in the year before last was sensational but hardly shown any of that this year and IMO had more average games than good ones and the likes of Daryl Goulding still maybe young but they've had enough years of experience to know what they should be capable of, it isn't as if they are rookie players in their first year.

But they simply have not had that much experience (bar Hansen). Just because they have been around along time doesn't mean they are experienced players.

Goulding has been around the first team since 2005 yet is only 21 and made his debut in 2005 with one appearance. In 2006 he played 8 SL games games, 15 in 2007, 19 in 2008 and 9 in 2009 (not counting a few games for Salford on the wing).

So his Wigan appearances to date total 52 spread over 5 seasons. Averaging just over 10 games per season. Compare that to an established senior professional e.g. Pat Richards who has played 99 SL games in four seasons. An average close to 25 games a season.

Had Goulding been around this long AND averaging 25 games a season you may have a point but he just hasn't so I don't think you do.

I also don't accept the premise that Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding were actually poor last season or in a comfort zone. When he played Goulding played well and both Hansen and J Tomkins performances were IMO the least of our worries.

Dave

Alot of Gouldings Wigan appearences came from the bench aswell i'd imagine. He's had a decent crack of the whip though imo and probably should have showed a little more improvment then he has done so far. I think alot of people don't think he has the physical tools to make it but i'd love for him to prove us wrong.

As for Hansen and J Tomkins. I just think Hansen does his job and does it pretty well. He's never going to be Gaz Hock but what he brings to the side is important and will be especially important in McGuire's regime that to me looks to be about workrate, defence, effort and commitment. He'll continue to bring all of those.

Moving on to Joel Tomkins i was dissapointed with his season last year but there was still enough in it to sugges and he's going to be a quality player. He's a proper athlete and a real big lad. He let silly errors creep back into his game last year but he strikes me as a lad that needs confidence to play well. The season didn't start well for the side and he never seemed to really recover from that. I'd back the coaching staff and especially Shuan Wane to get the best from him next season.

goulding sayed he enjoyed going to salford so he couls get first team starts but... when he came back to wigan he said that he was glad to be back at wigan

IMO that is a very good assessment of the three players mentioned. I've watched Darrell since he was 16 years of age and expected more of him, but he hasn't delivered yet. I do think that this season will be his last chance, particularly with the likes of Marsh, Thornley and Charnley pushing for chances.

Hansen to me is fine, he is another like Phil Bailey who gets through a lot of in noticed work.

Joel didn't quite kick on last year and as NK says made quite a few costly errors, but I think he will come good, he's big and quick.

All three are relatively young and I believe very good trainers so we'll have to see how they go this season under the new regime.

Everybody deserves a fair crack of the whip this season under a new regime, but beyond that with so many players off contract, it will force players who perhaps are thought to be under performing to buck up there ideas.

Hopefully we'll see under this new regime a willingness to drop players and change the team from week to week, because of both poor performances from individuals as well as changing the team to suit are own needs for defeating different opponents, rather than going with the same team each week come rain or shine.

I'm trying to think of players who were in the first team when Noble arrived that have considerably improved under his coaching and guidance, and I honestly can't think of one player who has. Perhaps under this new regime we'll see current first team players add to there game's elements that have been missing to take them and the team to that next level, the team's performance will only rise and improve when individuals performance's rise and improve.

I think this is true. I think its a clean slate for the lot of them and that includes two who I think consistently under-performed, Riddle and Roberts.

Should they have done better than the less experienced players? Yes in my opinion but it's water under the bridge now. The same should apply to Goulding etc.

I don't think there should be any player under any more pressure to deliver than any other player including those two along with Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding. They all have to respond to the new regime, fit in with it and train and play as instructed.

If come the end of next season having all started with a clean slate some players are not delivering or responding to the new regime then we can debate then if they need to go but the key point is no one should be under any more pressure then anyone else to perform.

Put it this way, if they didn't perform under Noble and don't perform under MM then it's most likely the player that isn't good enough not the coaching. I am optimistic enough to believe the vast majority of them will perform better under MM.

Dave

I think it's totally correct that it should and will be a clean slate for everybody. Thats really exciting isn't it because it means that all the teams people are picking could be way wrong come the start of the season.

Who's to say at the start of the year Pryce, Ainscough, Mossop etc won't be first team regulars. If they(and others) get their heads down and impress the new man in pre season there is no reason why he won't pick them as starters. He has no loyalty to anybody in this squad which should ensure everybody is fully commited going into the season.

It's a really exciting time at the moment.

Absolutely and yes, the players i mentioned earlier arent on their own but remember (former manager) Mr Noble was not a major fan of Hansen hence the reason H was constantly unhappy at being on the bench every week, and he admittedly got a break of fortune when Gaz Hock got banned and mibbe Joel did too but i repeat.. his place has still got to be won in the side as has Joel who always flatters to decieve for me and i have watched him since his debut (no matter how many fans he has on these boards) as have Darryl and Feka too..

On the Mossop front id say very possibly yes, he's the same, remember he was shipped out to Huddersfield on loan for a reason being that was either Noble wasnt a fan of him and thought there was better to come through or he needed first team regularity! whatever we believe and i did think he was superb in our last 8 to 10 games by the way.
Its going to be interesting how Mr Mcguire dictates as to who his mainstays are going to be but id be willing to bet a shilling that 2 or atleast 1 of the aforementioned players will be getting the toe.
Remember, weve all have our opinions and thats mine

Bob on......

Having just watched the Deacs video I will be interested in the squad numbers for next season....

Very!

It's going to be a good indication of how things are shaping up. Maybe the delay in the new shirts coming out is to give McGuire as much time as he needs before christmas with the squad to decide who should get which numbers.

People are going to want the names and numbers on the backs of their shirts so they have to be released before they go on sale.

From a neutral :

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai

Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Bailey / Hansen
O'Loughlin

McIlorum
Hansen / Mossop
Fielden
Palea'aesina

Mossop to get the number 11 shirt for me. He needs first team football week in week out, he has sooo much potential. We've got a gem there

I'd go with

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai
Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Hansen
O'Loughlin

Fielden
Feka
McIlorum
Bailey/Mossop