It's supposed to be when the foot touches the ball, although the foot never touches the ball a lot of the time which complicates things.

The individual quality of most of the players on the field I would personally rate as very good/excellent.

But their performance as a "team" is poor and that has got to be down to the inadequacies of the coach and his staff.

IMO the current team is a mirror image of Wane as a player. A player who was injury prone and who averaged only 15 games per season including appearances as a substitute. And when he was on the field he gave too many penalties away and dropped too much ball.

Neither a legend as a player or as a coach.

Get rid and freshen up the club and the team because both are so boring.

... this.

I have to agree, that team from last night should be standing up to any team in the current league with little issue. forget our injury run and "time being needed to bed in" again. that's rubbish. they are professionals. its an excuse that can no longer be used. we are almost at full strength so the blame lies away from the players in my opinion too.

To be fair quite a lot of patience was lost last year in the Wane methodology...............before anyone says Yes I know we won GF etc etc but that is the whole problem. We papered over the cracks all last season with the amount of games we won by 1-4 points showed that we just did enough and won't always last.

There are many things wrong and very annoying that many fans see but why doesnt Wane? How many times do we when fielding a kick (with our props / second row / hooker walking back) and our set goes - Winger, Centre, Centre, Winger and Prop (get to about 40 metres) and then a random half hearted bomb which doesnt have enough height / length for us to compete for ball to either catch or tackle man making minimal metres. Forwards then try put to much effort into the tackle / wrestle and then its penalty, penalty which tires even more of the middle men out. Centres / Wingers / George are doing so much work clearing our line that when it comes to attack at the right end of the field they are gassed but the forwards are always there in the way.

Was discussing last night main highlight for me v Catalans was second half try when Gildart went in and out dragged winger in and put Burgess away. He did similar thing at Leigh but these moments are so far and between because the ball isnt moved out quick enough or we just arent getting in good position due to what I have mentioned above.

As anything really changed since Madge left (game plan / structure)?

I totally agree with some of the other comments there is too many of Wanes mates involved and he keeps them very close to him, Paul Johnson, Steve Blakeley, Matty Peat, Daryl Goulding and he as brought back all the players he liked from St Pats or lower grade who all wont question or go against him which I think he needs at times. Why did Iyestn Harris leave, why did Paul Deacon leave...........?both attacking coaches at the club who both left under a bit of a cloud.

Crowds are going down and a lot of fans are fed up with the rubbish being turned out. I wont say i am not going to go or anything like that but dont look forward to it as years gone by and considering we are winning trophies which a lot of people will tell me it doesnt feel that way........does it ?

Course there has to be time needed to bed in, eg Bateman is getting better week by week and as you said yourself of the other thread regarding Tierney going on loan to Catalan "Dom hasn't played for a year and will no way fit right back in"

Just to add to the misery, no doubt Bateman will pick up a ban for his brain fart at the end of the match leaving us with a second row of Isa + ?. Smashing

I think part of our problem is that we don't particular offer a threat from dummy half, as much as McClorrum and Powell do what they do well, neither of them offer anything particularly different in an attacking sense when the other is off the pitch, so teams know they are going to get from that area for 80 mins and can plan accordingly.

I think you put a Darryl Clarke type player in that side during the game and the likes of Williams & Leululai to a lesser extent would have a field day running at a retreating defence, and would be very likely to create a bit of space for our centres.

Lets be honest Gelling is pretty much being used as a battering ram at the moment.

Both were with an open hand too, I'd expect a warning letter for both and that will be the end of it.

Get em up n down Rivington Then a laps round the plantations

Would there be any mileage in playing Tommy at hooker, a position in which he has excelled, bringing Sam up to partner George and using one of our many wingers at the back?

In the short term it's something to consider but longer term we still need a kicking half for me. The lack of pace Sam is showing is quite staggering. I'm not joking here when I say he looks probably slower then Wellens at the back end of his career. Hopefully it's a case of getting up to speed rather then all that pace has gone for good (we clearly know he's not the whippet he was at 21). Other then that pace there isn't a great deal wrong with his game but it's such a huge part of him.

Sorry Nicky but he's not doing enough for me. I can't stand seeing him at acting half back, simply handing the ball on. I've defended him recently but, if I'm honest, I think I was trying to convince myself to some extent. I'm not expecting the "whippet" to return but he's just not going for it IMO. Just because you lack pace doesn't mean you can't make a break. Tommy Martin, Lee Briers and even Andy Gregory did it on a regular basis and they weren't quick.

You can tell Wigan are a team coached by a prop forward. Absolutely clueless.

I am just hoping that he is just nursing his injury through to the CCSF but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'd love him to be even 50% of the player he was.
Personally I would put him in the halves now and give young Davies a dig at FB. It can't be any worse than the present set up.
I just wish he'd stop all the whinging and get on with playing.