That's exactly what I am saying, Wigan were really poor, particularly in the first half. The amount of times they produced unforced errors and gave the initiative to Saints in the first half was astounding. But Saints ultimately did nothing with it.

What I mean by looking the better team is when we got into your half, we looked dangerous every set whereas Saints didn't look like scoring. What I would ask you is, how do you think it would have gone had Wigan had the amount of territory and possession that Saints had? I personally think game over by half time.

In big, one-off games territory and possession are usually split fairly even. I think myself and Wigan fans are optimistic that if we get a fair share of ball and complete sets in a big game, we have a great chance.

PS, YG it would be great if you could point me in the direction of the game stats, would love to look at these..

I feel we would have won the Magic game anyway as we were piling the pressure on for the last 15 mins and you looked gassed. The breakaway try was scored down our left after Sironen went off with a head knock (you know the one that he milked, that one)

If Wigan are being held up as a better team due to winning the CC Final, then I can point out that you were less than 4 mins away from losing that one. Even if I gave you 70 mins out of 80 for the CC semi (which is ridiculous) we still come out as more dominant overall across all 3 games.

We did lead that game too. 2-0

Dont quote facts they cant handle it only opinions will do

Just one question YG: I know it's 4 points for a try and 2 for a conversion but remind me how many points you get for most territory as I can't find reference to it anywhere.

At magic, you played your way, we played ours. Until we went down to 12 men you never lead the contest. Were we the better team? Well we didn't play at our best so I'll say possibly not but don't point to the things you do better as if they're the only things that determine a game. We were beating you for the vast majority of that match and I'd argue would have won the match had we not gone down to 12. Opinion, I grant you, but the fact you never lead despite all the points you got for your massive territorial advantage (sic) suggests that it's at the very least a reasonable opinion.

you had us under pressure for the first 20 mins but couldnt score,you can give us anything you want,breakdown of play,injuries to all of your strike players,dominant minutes etc (all opinions of course) but it still stands we are having a more successful season so far what with us being the CC holders.

Quote ="LewCharnock"That's exactly what I am saying, Wigan were really poor, particularly in the first half. The amount of times they produced unforced errors and gave the initiative to Saints in the first half was astounding. But Saints ultimately did nothing with it. What I mean by looking the better team is when we got into your half, we looked dangerous every set whereas Saints didn't look like scoring. What I would ask you is, how do you think it would have gone had Wigan had the amount of territory and possession that Saints had? I personally think game over by half time. In big, one-off games territory and possession are usually split fairly even. I think myself and Wigan fans are optimistic that if we get a fair share of ball and complete sets in a big game, we have a great chance. PS, YG it would be great if you could point me in the direction of the game stats, would love to look at these..'" I answered this exact question the day after the game mate and said that had Wigan had the same possession and position we had, you would score more points. But my point is you didn't. This is what I said in the magic game thread on here: [iI actually think Wigan are the more ruthless of the two sides. We were on top for 25 mins but did nothing with it then you got one chance and scored. Give Wigan the same amount of ball as saints and they score fair more points than us. But ultimately we beat you up In the middle and got more chances.[/i I have no doubt Wigan are more ruthless in attack than we are in terms of chances:points ratio but we give ourselves more chances by getting on top territorially and having more possession. I think that's fair? Stats here mate....https://www.superleague.co.uk/match-centre/report/3572

Quote ="LewCharnock"That's exactly what I am saying, Wigan were really poor, particularly in the first half. The amount of times they produced unforced errors and gave the initiative to Saints in the first half was astounding. But Saints ultimately did nothing with it. What I mean by looking the better team is when we got into your half, we looked dangerous every set whereas Saints didn't look like scoring. What I would ask you is, how do you think it would have gone had Wigan had the amount of territory and possession that Saints had? I personally think game over by half time. In big, one-off games territory and possession are usually split fairly even. I think myself and Wigan fans are optimistic that if we get a fair share of ball and complete sets in a big game, we have a great chance. PS, YG it would be great if you could point me in the direction of the game stats, would love to look at these..'" I answered this exact question the day after the game mate and said that had Wigan had the same possession and position we had, you would score more points. But my point is you didn't. This is what I said in the magic game thread on here: [iI actually think Wigan are the more ruthless of the two sides. We were on top for 25 mins but did nothing with it then you got one chance and scored. Give Wigan the same amount of ball as saints and they score fair more points than us. But ultimately we beat you up In the middle and got more chances.[/i I have no doubt Wigan are more ruthless in attack than we are in terms of chances:points ratio but we give ourselves more chances by getting on top territorially and having more possession. I think that's fair? Stats here mate....https://www.superleague.co.uk/match-centre/report/3572

No. You have had a better season so far. You haven't been the better team so far. There is a difference. But this is one of those that could drag on so we can agree to disagree on it.

If ever anything proved a point it's that last statement. All that advantage and yet the only points scored were from a penalty kick. Says it all really although I will admit you're technically right

I was directly answering someone who mentioned possession and territory and said they thought Wigan were on top. I didn't mention points, so your sarcastic question is a bit needless really mate. So is that really annoying thing you do of putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that possession and territory determine a game. I actually was very complimentary about wigan and said they can hurt you from anywhere and it's a battle of contrasting styles. I literally never claimed or even insinuated that possession and territory is the be all and end all. You talk about having grown up discussion so let's do that

I just hope that you give us a chance the next time we play. Given that you have dominated the last two games we have played, all the strike you have and now Cooper to add to the pack, I'm hoping we can at least give you a game and make the scoreline respectable.

I'm off to lump on Wigan winnning the Grand Final. Seems like its a licence to print money.

I'll tell you one thing. There is no way in the world that Wigan nil Hudds going down to 12 men after 16 mins, 11 for the last 8 mins and losing a FB after 3 mins. Absolutely no chance. However because its us, its simply because "Huddersfield were toothless". No other team in SL could've done that, not a chance.

We are having a better season so far but not the better team go figure,so yes we agree to disagree

But that is your opinion saying Wigan have no chance of emulating Saints against Hudds but we will never know.

It was a bit sarcastic mate but I grow tired of Saints fans pointing to territory or yardage and saying it makes you the better team. It doesn't. It's one in game metric (albeit an important one) of which there are many equally important ones. I would say, for a team such as ourselves who can score from anywhere on the field, that it's not even the most important. Set completion is far more important to a team like ours.

Its like saying a boxer dominated the centre of the ring so is the better fighter despite landing fewer punches or getting knocked out. I'm not saying I wouldn't like us to close the advantage you currently have in this department...of course I would...but I equally want to make less errors than you or have more possession etc. They're all equally important.

As I said elsewhere; we play our way and you play yours. I don't think pointing to one teams particular strength and claiming it is the single most important factor in determining who is best is valid. As for a grown up discussion; show me a single post where a Saints fan doesn't use yardage or territory as the incontrovertible reason Saints are the better side and I'll apologise for my sarcasm.

Do you not even see the irony in this post Stu?

I have never said, insinuated or implied that. I was pointing out Wigan hadn't got on top in those areas which is what another posted had said.



I agree and have said the same myself in a complimentary fashion about Wigan.



I agree, hence why I haven't done that.



Literally me, all over this thread. I have said both teams have contrasting styles and when we meet again it could go either way.

I haven't said yardage and territory is the be all and end all, I haven't said it's the most important factor and I haven't said it makes us the better team. Literally read my posts this morning and after the Magic game and you will realise I have done none of the things you claim I have.

No not really. Go on educate me.

All I see is a complete and utter lack of respect for what we did last Friday. Even the neutral pundits were describing it as the performance of the season. French scores 7 and you beat Hull 60-0 and yet our performance is still being talked about more. Go figure.

Mate, we must be living in some sort of alternate reality. You literally posted:

"Quite shocked at this. I thought territorially we battered you personally and said this on here after the game. In terms of metres made on the day we were over 400m more than you for example (despite you scoring from two long range breaks from Field and french too). We also made more carries and you made more tackles. So in terms of both possession and territory we were on top. You were forever finishing sets in your own half. We were camped in your half for the start of the game but I don't recall us being under the pump on our line for long spells."

If that is not focussing on how territory isn't the defining factor as to why you were the best, I don't know what is.

That said if you don't believe that to be the case despite posting it then fair enough.

I posted that in direct response to someone who brought possession and territory up!! I didn't bring it up.

Did I say that because of those things we are a better team than you or that they are the only factors that matter? No.

What I did go on to say, which you conveniently ignore, is that we have contrasting styles, Wigan are more ruthless, can hurt you from anywhere and games between us can go either way.

How on earth do you translate that to me saying only yardage and territory matters and Saints are the much better team? It makes no sense mate. Please judge me on what I have actually said in the full context they were said and not on made up arguments that make it easy for you to have a pop.

Ok I'll educate you



Firstly, wouldn't you say that the very definition of toothless (in rugby terms) is being unable to score points? Wouldn't you say that being unable to score points against 12 and then 11 men would further define it? If not, would you care to give me a better definition of toothless?

Secondly, you're asking for Wigan fans to give credit for your
Huddersfield performance whilst simultaneously belittling the semi final win (amongst others) and claiming 'unfair' when you don't get it.

I won't even comment on your assertion that "no other team could do it" (sic) as I shouldn't need to.

Seeing the irony yet?

For what it's worth, your performance against Huddersfield was outstanding.

And, in the same way, I was commenting on your post in which you also use territory as a marker of your dominance despite you being behind on the scoreboard. You can't expect to answer posts in isolation with no comeback. If you say something, I'm allowed to respond regardless of whose post you're answering.

In truth, my post wasn't aimed so much at you alone but to Stu who has repeatedly ploughed this furrow on this very thread, and also FTV who uses it on a regular basis too. It's a generalism so, for that, I'll happily apologise for quoting your post.

The styles of the two sides currently makes for an intriguing match up. Saints will always dominate territory IMO because of how they play in getting off the line and trying to pin you down at your end. There aren’t many team that can try and play to a plan that we can and that’s to not panic, try to soak it up and be confident that at some point we can trouble them with our pace, as the intensity drops a touch. The issue we face with Saints though is that intensity never drops significantly and they seem to lift it and have a 2nd/3rd wind as the game goes on. Where we’ve hurt ourselves badly in games against them is adding to that pressure they apply by keep making basic errors, down at our end of the field. Clean those up and we’ll be a far better chance in future games against them.

Ultimately they’re still favourites at the moment because like it or not, they’re the better side. It’s not tough or embarrassing to admit that, I just think it’s a fact. We’re getting there but there is still work to do yet. I’m chuffed we’ve closed the gap as much as we have because we’re probably a year in front of where I thought/hoped we’d be. To think back to last season, I wouldn’t have believed you had you said we’d have a cup win in the bag, beating Saints in the process and would be sat 2nd in the table (even after basically giving up a couple of losses for the Cup win).

NO I DIDN'T!!! Please please please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I say it was a marker of our dominance. Someone said Wigan were on top territorially and had more possession and I showed that wasn't the case.That is literally it. I didn't say we dominated the game. Please stop adding bits on that I haven't said, it's so frustrating. Take what I said at fae value and don't create a new meaning for the purpose of an argument.



Fair enough I am sure there are people (not necessarily saying Stu and FTV) who claim that those stats are all that matters. I am not one of them so I object to you reading what I say and then telling me I mean something else.

To be fair to YG and Stu, they are really knowledgeable posters and talk a lot of sense, particularly this debate. They're dead right in their assessment that Saints generally have had the upper hand in meetings this season, but we're getting closer.

One thing that is a positive for us going forward is the acquisition of Cooper. The difference in having him in the 17 next time out v Saints opposed to Partington/Shorrocks is night and day IMO. We could be at a point where we actually have the better pack come September.

Ok thanks for the education. However as an educated man (qualifications can be provided on request) I do know what toothless means.

The point I am making is that we only nilled them in your eyes because they were toothless. Heaven forbid it was due to our desire and outstanding defence. We made 4 or 5 try saving last ditch tackles for Gods sake so its hardly like they didn't break the line or stretch us. Hopoate injured himself for the first one and then Welsby and Lomax were responsible for the others. I thought you watched the game?

Secondly how am I belittling anything? Go through all my posts and you will see that I consistently say the gap is closing, Peet is doing a great job and you have great strike. So perhaps you need education on what "belittling" means. Do I think we are better than you? 100%. I'd go as far to say that we play you 10 times and with both teams being at full strength, we win 7/8. My opinion of course.