Less than twelve months ago Sarge played for England against both Australia and New Zealand. If you had watched those games you would have seen that he looked comfortably at home in that environment, in fact he outperformed Watkins over the two games.

So that would suggest that at least, Sarge has what it takes to become a top class player. The problem is that he is asked to do so much more than any other centre in the competition. If Percival at Saints (the best young centre around) was asked to do the second play hit ups that Sarge is being asked to do, he wouldn't cope either.

If Sarge is making defensive errors, it's not because he can't defend, it's because he is being asked to do too much. Just compare his carries with those of any of our props. That is where the problem lies.

We don't have one prop in the club worthy of the name. Flower is a pale shadow of his former self, Crosby and Mossop do nothing, Tautai is a joke. Only Tony Clubb looks capable, and he is hardly in the same league as about a dozen I could name starting with Chris Hill and ending with Andy Lynch.

They could be the future, but it would develop them so much more learning off a seasoned 6/7 like Brough for a year or 2. I don't know who'd be a better match in SL for us than Brough.

That is a painfully accurate observation.

I understand your point but not changing the personnel when other players might make a difference isn't forward thinking. Has Smith been so good he's untouchable? No, not in my eyes, is Williams untouchable? No. We honestly don't know how Rocky will play in the halves, and that's the whole point, he needs a run of games in the first team in the halves to see what he offers, one game isn't enough for him to prove his worth, Gelling suffered no end from being played in the odd game in the wrong position when given a run of games in the right position he started to shine, as Hampshire might, or Powell for that.

Evidence has shown over the years changing people yet keeping the system the same does have an effect on the team, did Wigan improve when Tomkins replaced Smith? Yes massively. Individuals can easily improve a team. Would we improve if we had the same system yet had JT in the halves or Inglis at fullback? I'd bet my mortgage we would.

FWIW I think it's always difficult playing behind a beaten pack, it's rushed and dangerous at times to put set plays on spinning the ball out in our own half, and it's much harder to deliver attacking kicks when in your own half/20-30. I think the pack is more of an issue, namely the props. But guidance and control from a top 6/7 would go along way.

Actually a decent post! I agree FWIW

Thanks, appreciated. I know we don't always see eye to eye.

"The Move" still works. The only problem is (a) it's our only move and (b) we don't have the players to execute it effectively anymore (Finch/Green, Sam, Carmont, Pat, Goulding).

Smith is a good player but he thrives off having a top class halfback alongside him. I thought he kicked really well throughout last night with very little praise.

With Williams, the problem is clear as day - confidence. He is trying too hard, forcing passes and scuffing grubber kicks. Every time he has the ball he tries to 'do something'. He needs some thoughtful coaching and revert back to his natural game.

Agree with the comments RE Sarge. The lad works his backside off every game. He takes up so many dead ball carries - throwing himself into forwards and getting smashed. He has shown his class at the highest level. Stop working him like a forward and we might see more of his class in attack and he may have a bit more energy to defend!

For next season our backline is fine. Tomkins Charnley Sarginson Gelling and Manfredi. Our backs are excellent. Williams needs to be spelled with Hampshire now. I wont get on Williams' back because he has been thrown in the deep end and is playing behind a powderpuff pack. After the last few weeks though and getting smashed and punched by Sims I'd rest him and give Hampshire a chance in his preferred position.

We need a backup hooker to Mcilorum for next season. Not convinced Powell or Logan Tomkins have a great impact when they come on. They give everything granted, but they aren't good enough. Brad Dwyer made a huge difference for Warrington when he came on. In the short term I'm not sure what we can do. We will have to go with Powell.

Our pack needs to find their backbone and they need to find it quick. We missed Clubb and Bateman. Two aggressive players. Flower has gone well since his return and Sutton has acquitted himself well for his age. Mossop, Tautai and Crosby need a rollocking and need to sort their game out quick. Patrick has just been bloody awful. For next season we need some huge experienced pack leaders. I'd have loved an Ashton Sims or a Cuthbertson in our side. In the short term there's not much we can do I fear. Clubb and Bateman come straight back into the side. Lockers too at 13 with Sutton benched with Patrick dropped. Tautai, Mossop and Crosby are in last chance saloon. Tautai to keep hold of the ball at all times - no more errors! And Crosby and Mossop to discover their again!

No half-back at Wigan will look good at the moment - the pack is being bullied and walked all over, I lost count of how many drives the backs were taking up because the forwards (props esp) were just not performing - and at times looked downright lazy. Even when they took the ball up - nothing. The Warrington forwards were making yards for fun.

Until the pack (front row in particular) either man up or get replaced debate about half backs is pointless.

Christ we've got problems but Hughes being five time the player Sarginson is certainly isn't one! He's an average second row at best.

I actually thought Sarge was pretty good last night. It's not the three quarters fault they're doing the props work on top of their own.

Hughes knows what centre play is about but Sarge doesn't?!!

I'm as annoyed as the next man but I seem to have landed on another planet! Hughes has showed zero ability when it comes to traditional centre player and whilst Sarge has rough edges there's a classy wingers centre in there somewhere.

End of discussion really.

Summed up to perfection.

I agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree here. MMc should be doing 80 minutes. Who is Saints back up to Roby? Who is Leeds to Aiton? how often do you see Cameron Smith taken off? IMO back up hookers are not required. Lockers or Bateman could spell MMc if he needs a short 10 minute break but no longer - not worth having a hooker on the bench.