Hock - more often than not he would demand the ball, which good players do. With him missing the other back rowers have to take more work on which allows them to show what they can do. Joel Tomkins has benefitted from this.

The other thing may be better ball retention in the opposition 25. Hock would inject himself (don't start) when we were setting up camp and quite offten lose the ball.It looks to me that Phelps is running the same lines as hock used to do but is a better ball handler, his passes usually hit the man rather than the first row of the stand like Hock often did.

I'm not suggesting that Hock is a bad player but his ball retention at times was poor

Tomkins - his defence has always been spot on and has a bit of niggle about him that Smith did not have. His kicking has always been good and that and his attacking game have improved the more games he's had

Does Noble deserve a bit of credit for the way he's handled him?

He gets plenty of critism on here for not giving youth a go, but is it reasonable to ask a youngster to make 30 odd appearences in his first proper season? If Noble believed that it would be better to have 15 - 20 good performances from Sam we'd be better getting them at the end of the season rather than the begining

Smith's departure has given Sam his opportunity and he's taking it.
We now have two half backs who will attack the opposition's defence line whereas Smith rarely did. Sam has far more to his game than Smith showed at Wigan and teams are having difficulty reading what Sam will do next. It's those options which are causing problems for defences.

Hock's ban plus Lockers & Bails being injured has given the younger players their opportunity and they again have stepped up.
Noble must be given credit here.
He is now using Mossop not as a 2nd row but a fifth prop. It was Lee's powerful runs down the middle that helped tire out the Leeds defence in that 2nd half. I felt that last Friday was the first time our pack had come from a poor start to totally over run the opposition.
Catalan tired in the last 15 mins, Bradford were out on their feet in the last ten and Leeds pack was exhausted with 15 to go.
This is a great sign for us if our pack is wearing down the opposition forwards and overpowering them. Mossop is key to this.

Overall the squad has coped remarkably well following the loss of Smith & Hock plus the injuries. They have stepped up and succeeded, well done to all of them.
Also well done to the coaching staff who've had to organise it all.

To make 30 appearances in a season would be going some for any player. That would be all the regular rounds plus a good cup run and never missing a game!

Sam T played one game in the cup last season against Whitehaven and that was it. That was all the preparation Noble gave him and he will most likely feature in all our remaining league and cup fixtures which is a minimum of 21 appearances for him not including a possible Wembley final and any play off games.

To go from one game to at least 21+ games is not what I would consider good handling of the players development. It really has been in at the deep end.

The way he has handled it so far just points to the fact he was given so little chance last season as a mistake on Nobles part IMO. Burrow and McQuire were given about 8 to 10 games before going on the following season when they were the same age as Sam to feature in every fixture.

As to Hock demanding the ball as good players do etc aren't we back to the oxymoron of us being better off without a class player in the side?

Dave

Agreed he should have got more games last season and the likes of Farrell and Thornley should be getting the odd game this year rather than patching up players like Carmont and Gleeson to play half fit.

The example of 30 appearences a season was an exageration to illustrate a point, yes I want us to play in all the play offs and have a good cup run. If that happens then any young player will need handling appropriately.

The way Kevin Brown was handled a few seasons ago IMO was appalling and that's why he's at Huddersfield now and not with us

Also I never suggested that we are better off without good players, just pointing out that Hock had problems with ball retention, it's a weakness in his game.

Ellery Hanley couldn't time a pass unless you put an alarm clock on the ball but he's the best player I've ever seen. It would be nice to have both him and Hock in our back row in their prime

The reality of the situation is without progressing any further in the cup and if we don't make the playoffs Sam Tomkins would most likely go from playing one game last season to 21 this. 21 games out of a possible 27. This does not qualify as being handled appropriately IMO which is what you were suggesting before.

Should we progress in the cup and reach the play offs he will most likely feature in all those games as well so would that qualify as being handled appropriately?



No it wasn't. Brown made 12, 15, 24 then 11 appearance in each season for us from 2003 until 2006. He had a much more gradual introduction into the first team than Sam Tomkins has had under Noble.

If you think the way Brown was introduced was appalling taking three seasons to get to playing 24 games what do you think of Sam Tomkins going form 1 to 21+ appearances?



Well I took your statement about him demanding the ball as an implied criticism that meant with the other players showing what they could do you were falling into trap of suggesting we were better off without him. If not then fair enough.

As to ball retention he was no worse in this regard than any of our other forwards IMO.

As FT said the squad has done very well to cope with his loss and the loss of MM and Lockers but despite the other players stepping up to the plate we are worse off without him.

Dave

the appalling aspect of Kevin Browns introduction to the 1st team wasn't the number of appearances he had leading up to being a 1st team regular. It was due to the fact that he was a young stand off pushed out to centre where every team lined up their big men to run at him. He was like a rabbit in the headlights for much of 2006. IMO he really needed dropping to the bench or the 2nd team for a spell to regain his confidence and then play the occasional game in his natural position and he may have been ok

That coupled with breaking his leg and being rushed back

FWIW I reckon Sam will need a rest before the end of the season. But with Smith gone and Gleeson coming back from injury he may need to wait a couple of weeks

Not sure what that has got to do with the original point of does Noble deserve credit for the way he has handled Tomkins introduction to the first team.

Do you think going from 1 game in 2008 to 21 in 2009 was good handling of Sam Tomkins regarding his introduction the first team?



Given the form he is in and given the alternative options, if Noble rests him now with so few fixtures left I think he would want his head testing.

Despite being thrown in at the deep end he has coped very well. He is also (or soon will be, can't remember) 20 not a young 18 year old and we need to be playing the players in form to try and get 4th and do well in the cup. Noble's options to rest players went out of the window a while back as we need to win most if not all of our remaining games and he needs his best side for that which includes Sam Tomkins.

With the semi coming up it will be interesting to see if any players are rested not just Tomkins. League points-wise we can't afford to lose matches so I'd expect to see a strong side out there.

Dave

its a mental attitude. When a team loses a major player or go through certain situation, it can see them go one of two ways, either depitulate and be clueless or rejuvenised.

Everton when they lost rooney is a good example. The media and fans often write off their chances, questioning the team etc, they finished 4th the year after having there best season since the 80's. These instances not only makes the remaining team have nothing to lose, but also often makes the players sit up and want to prove a point, getting that extra bit out of themselves during games. It often brings a team together, when an bad experience happens. Players feel they are sharing the brunt and often become closer and work better as a team.

its not uncommon in sport and it is mostly down to psychology.
Lets hope it continues to the end of the season.

Teams can become reliant on certain players.

Far too often during games we just plugged the ball down the left hand side and onto hock. Now that hock isn't there our play is spread out that much more, which makes us much less predictable as well as bringing Roberts and Gleeson into the game more.

As for smith, i just think he didnt suit us and we didn't suit him. He didn't have the solid defensive base around him to allow him to do his thing.

If smith was put into leeds/saints team he'd be up there with the best in the league.

I understand what your saying DaveO about 1 game season to 21 game season with Sam T - but haven't we all been saying this about Sam for years - "If your good enough your old enough"?

FWIW I don't think it's been terrific handling but what choice did BN have sometimes? When Smith was playing awfully he had to put Sam T or he'd be crucified - then Smith get's injured - step up Sam T again.

Who else would there be to play there? Phelps? Gleeson? That would involve a complicated squad rotation when with Sam waiting in the wings, there is very little need for it.

oh leytheres we love u

Wrong board.

There is no one else but the myth is that Noble would bring players on gradually while the reality is as your post illustrates that he reacts to events rather than adopting a planned introduction of the players.

Yes his hand has been forced this season but if he had given Sam T some runs out last season then it would not be 1 v 21 would it?

Ainscough has played 11 games all at the start of the season and again that selection was forced on Noble. Now Richards and Roberts are there do you see Noble resting one of them to give him some more experience of a higher standard than the reserves? I don't and the criticism is he never has done this sort of thing. At the moment I don't think he can because having lost 10 games already we can't afford to lose any more but when there have been opportunities in previous seasons instead Noble has chosen to stick with players like Colbon out of position.

Dave

I agree but the one player I think he has done a fairly decent job with is Mossop. He introduced him to SL, realised he need's more higher level experience and sent him out to Barrow and Huds and he's come back alot better player for it.

It's Darrell Goulding I really feel has been brought on poorly by Noble - this lad has bags of potential but BN hasn't been able to get at it through his handling of the lad.



No your right there - but having said that we had Trent last year. In hindsight it wouldn't of been a bad idea to have ST and TB playing together. Again that's down to Noble.



With Ainscough I'm not convinced he is up to it defensively at SL level. Attacking wise he's fantastic but in defense he's a little iffy. IMO he should be out on loan when his injury heals.