It isn't both, I assure you.

Progress is easy to define - improving on what went before. Wigan have improved on what went before enormously. And that IS a fact, not just a view.

If you haven't got an agenda, I'm puzzled by your attitude, because it's clear you think you're on a winner here. The chances of winning the Grand Final are slim. There can be only one out of 6 likely challengers, and, as others have said, that could be decided by the bounce of a ball, or, as in last year's final, by yet another bizarre and completely unfair refereeing decision.

If, by some chance, Wigan win it, you'll be chuffed as a Wigan fan. But if they don't, even if it's down to the bounce of the ball, or the referee, or whatever, you can say that you were right all along.

Yet you haven't been all along. You say it only matters winning at the end of the season? By that logic we'd only turn up to watch the play-offs. 15,000-odd people clearly disagree with you on that.

Now surely you're not going to insist that they are all wrong and you are right?

It's their opinion. If they are happy to see a team play "well" for the weekly rounds and appreciate that as progress then good luck to them. Personally I believe it's all about results.

The difference here is that their opinion is entirely subjective, but mine is completely objective. I can therefore evaluate "progress" factually and without bias.



1. Actually it IS a point of view. We are out of the CC at an earlier stage than we were last year. Would it have happened had we played the same teams last year? Who knows, - it's a POINT OF VIEW

We are also mid-way through the season. Will we make the final eliminator and at least match what we have done in recent years? Who knows? Will we fade away and achieve nothing? Who knows?


2. I am not sure why I would want to, or indeed if it would be possible to say I was "right". As stated above, my evaluation is not based on opinion.

How can you say that winning more games than last year is not progress?

Well as I have stated, progress in my opinion means position at the end of the season in the 2 competitions.

It's no good coming top of the pile after the regular rounds and crashing out of the playoffs straight away. That is not progress, that is "peaking at the wrong time" (or maybe other clubs are holding back a tad, maybe that's what Wigan did under BN?).

Look, all the signs are good. We are in prime position to exploit our position in the league and of course I hope we progress to the GF and win it, but I cannot accept either our level of performance or our current league position as evidence of progress.

Good summary. Personally I equate progress and success, but that is my opinion. If you are willing to seperate the two (which I am not) then of course a lot of the "alternative" opinions on here fall into that camp.

I agree on the fact that the league leaders get too little advantage btw. I have said time and time again that imo the "top 5" approach to playoffs is the fairest.

Then again this IS the RFL we are talking about.

But surely finishing top of the league and nothing else is more of a "success" than finishing midway down the table, and getting to two semi-finals. At least you've won the league leaders shield compared to nothing else!

Spin it any way you like, but surely you can see how utterly ludicrous that statement sounds?

Let me put something to you. Wouldn't you at least agree that Wigan are now much improved on the Wigan side of two years ago, which relied almost entirely on Trent Barrett?

That team got to two semi-finals as well, but it owed everything to one man, who we were extremely fortunate was never injured while he was playing for us. We now have a side that is actually a large squad. It doesn't rely on any particular superstar, it can be, and is, rotated on a regular basis. Players get injured, or are dropped and then brought back in depending on performance, and we still keep on winning. If that's not an improvement on the one-man team that was beaten in the CC semi at Warrington and then in the FG semi at Leeds then I don't know what is.

Sorry, but that doesnt make sense. We (or any other team) could be on the wrong end of a bad ref's call that ends their season, and that can't negate everything else that's gone before.

In terms of performance, position, quality of rugby, passion for the shirt and the attitude of the fans towards the team we've clearly made a lot of progress.

Consistency is the hardest thing to achieve in sport, and the most successful teams generally have it. For me, that's the area in which we've made most progress this season, and if we do end up without a GF appearance then I'll still view the season as a step forward.

Utterly ridiculous statement!!


One word answer "Do you believe we have made progress as a club this year?"

Piggy said on Twitter recently 'new coach done wonders'. I think that's the view of most fans too. If others are happy with watching mediocre and inconsistent performances by players who look demoralised and uninterested thats upto them but I'm far happier with the team this year. We've shown we can put a run of wins together far more than anyone and that can only help us in the playoffs but like a few people have said a lucky bounce of the ball can make all the difference when it comes to knock out rugby.

That makes zero sense imo. Ultimatly we can only compare what we have achieved at this point in this season with what we achieved at this point in the season last season. On the 10th of July we played Catalan at home and won, that gave us a four point cusion in 5th. We just beat catalan away on the 4th of July 2010 and that gives us a four point cusion in FIRST!

How can you say that is not progress?!

We haven't won anything at all yet, but how you can say we haven't progressed is beyond me.