This has been coming from the start of the season - i know we're only 5 games in, but after last week's effort I had a suspicion this was going to happen. We're too sloppy in defence & ship too many points. The Stainers have a PD of 128, ours is 19 & we're 4th as a result.

Let's just hope this is a wake-up for them.

4 king embarrassing.

Nothing else I can say, really.

Just nothing about us in any department.

Maybe someone at the club didn't want to be the one filling out all the Covid forms to travel for 30-40 people twice in a week.

I don't think there should be an overreaction - we just didn't manage the conditions. We couldnt hold onto the ball, we conceded 3 tries off the back of kicks on the wet ground and we had little energy left to attack.

The two recurring issues that continue to concern are the lack of power in the forward pack and the completely unacceptable dummy spit at the end from Ellis (just like Hardaker last year) which leaves a relatively weak front row even weaker for 8 weeks.

I like to be harsh when we win and to be optimistic when we lose. I feel far more positive tonight than I did after that Catalans defeat last year. It has absolutely confirmed my fears in terms of us having zero chance against Saints or Catalans in poor weather. We just don’t have the size or go forward in the pack to compete.

I’d have been far more concerned tonight had we lost by that score line, playing in dry weather and they just broke our line time and again but realistically we’ve produced a horror show of errors and given them points. Barrie Mac kept saying it was a Wigan 2021 performance, with us looking clueless in attack but I disagree. You can’t look clueless in attack if you can’t even hold the ball and you keep dropping it in your 20 metre zone.

Tonight has to be a game that makes our season rather than breaks it. It needs to be a stark wake up call for Lenagan and Rads that our middle unit still isn’t good enough to win games in these conditions and we need to continue looking at how we can improve that. I didn’t think we could win anything before tonight and I still don’t but we can learn things and we can still have a positive season.

100% correct.

Only thing I’m not sure on is Ellis getting 8 weeks off. He didn’t run in and punch, so it’ll be 3 or 4 games won’t it? Hope so anyway.

All teams have a stinker at some point. Even Saints will. You move on. It’s how you react next game that counts. If you have another really bad performance, then you panic, but not after a result like this. For me, you will still finish second this season.

I'm still positive overall. As expected, we got beat by the better side. I do still 100% believe that we are the 3rd best side in this comp and there's a base to build on.

My issue however is that we shouldn't be saying we've got an ok base to build from. We've gone from the champs to where we are at now in hardly any time at all. The blame, imo, lies at the feet of Rads & It might sound like hyperbole, but it's time for him to go. Too many bad decisions with recruitment, new contracts for youngsters/old stalwarts that aren't right overall for the balance of the squad and the Lam fiasco equals one to many things in the negative column.

It was definitely something of a wake up call. Catalans played the conditions perfectly and we made some sloppy errors early on, but much like last season the pack was well and truly dominated.

In some of our early games it was noticeable that Singleton and Ellis made little impact. It was particularly apparent against Leeds but they were so woeful they couldn't make anything of their pressure. There was always a concern that a good team wouldn't be as toothless and so it's turned out to be. Singleton as our most experienced prop should be our pack leader but once again he was barely noticeable.

One of the positive things from previous games was the versatility of the team and the fact that we can move players around to cause problems so it was really frustrating that Pearce-Paul, probably our only player who was carrying strongly and consistently, was isolated out wide while an underperforming Bateman was kept at second row. Get Pearce-Paul closer to the action because the ball was never going to go wide unless someone created space.
Shorrocks, as a ball playing 13, managed to make one half break before once again being switched to hooker where he's not effective. It felt like there was never a point where the coaching staff felt like a change might be needed if we were to try to get back into the game.

I'm still yet to see why we kept Willie Isa aside from him being a really nice guy. He's a hard worker just like every other option at 13 but his wages could have been spent on bringing in a player to strengthen a different area rather than having half a dozen loose forward options of which he might be the most experienced but also the most limited. Smithies was one of the few decent performers tonight and we know that Shorrocks is a decent player. That middle unit of Singleton, Ellis and Isa just doesn't look effective enough.

It's not a disaster, but it's proof that our problems from last season haven't disappeared in the space of a few months after a few wins.

I wonder what they really think of O’Neill when we resort to Shorrocks and stick with Powell? There’s a core of the team that have been there through the back end of the Wane era and then the Lam shambles who we need to get ruthless with. Powell and Isa for example are products of a squad we can’t sustain if we want to progress. Then there’s Partington, Shorrocks, Byrne, Smithies and Smith who although young just seem stale already due to the large number of games they were exposed to. I’m not sure what we do to rectify some of that lot being overpaid as per the comments last year about ‘rewarding’ young players with what I think are silly contracts. The club system just seems to produce the same carbon copies at the moment.

I called it at the time and alluded to it in my post above, but the two year contract for Isa was/is absolutely criminal. It was pretty obvious last season that the game was going past him and Smithies was on the cusp of being ready. We're 5 or so games into the season (including the friendlies) and it's all there for everyone to see. Like you said, the money for Isa's renewal should have gone towards someone with a point of difference i.e a bit of size in that backrow.

It's a Clubb esq deal and, like Tony, he'll be a dead weight to carry for the next two years. Add in Partington (2 years left) and Singleton (2 years left) and it screams mismanagement imo. Where's the balance there?

Isa has really struggled at 13, he just isn’t bringing anything really. He’s not got any size to dent the line, his ball skills are poor and surprisingly for him, he’s looked quite sluggish. You would expect him to play that Knowles style 13 role (obviously to a lesser level) in terms of leading our line speed, being aggressive and setting a tone but it’s been so timid.

On the flip side I’ve been happy with Smithies start to the season and I’ve been calling for it from week one but he now must get the start.

I'm a big fan of both Smithies and Byrne tbh.

I'd have no problem with Smithies being the bench cover, or replacements for Faz or Bateman - like everyone says "you need players like that". In an ideal world, Bateman isn't performing and he'd be rotated out for Smithies. You'd be happy with that, if it was done alongside us having a big 13 in the side. Sadly it isn't and guys like Smithies are being questioned when in reality it isn't there fault.

Likewise, I have no issues with Byrne being our 5th choice lad & actually can't think of many 5th choice, 23yr olds better than him. The issue is that Singleton has been a complete dud of a signing and, like the above with Smithies, that has a negative impact further down the pecking order. If Singleton isn't softening them up, then that makes Byrne's job even harder.

I haven’t watched the game or seen any highlights but I think it’s a huge bump back down to earth. As much as I hate to say it, it proves how far St Helens and Catalans are ahead and how much ground we have to make up

I hope you're right.

The young French guy has clearly played all his rugby in this modern era when there's no real retaliation for grub play. Now he knows the biff hasn't entirely gone away.

I agree that it was still a foolish reaction. Ellis will get banned, but he clearly wasn't the instigator of that fracas.