Whenever i saw him in his younger days against players of his same age Smith really stood out so maybe(hopefully) when we get the 2 Aussie props in next season then he will have a pack in front of him with more go forward

That’s because Hastings is literally our only threat and teams know exactly that.

Teams know 100% where ever he is he gets the ball so it is easy to defend and snuff out the threat.

Lam gets the blame for that, but so does Smith seems more than happy to take a back seat and stay out of the firing line rather than offering an alternative option.

We should stick with Smith IMO. He is hit and miss right now but there is talent there to nurture. That is only going to happen by giving him more experience. Not every halfback is going to walk in and boss it every week like Tomkins and Williams did. If we stopped picking Smith or let him go I'm convinced he would come back to bite us elsewhere.

I just wouldn’t over judge anyone in the current set up. To call anyone a write off or to even big somebody up under the current coach is a pointless exercise IMO. We have a bloke in charge who is utterly clueless and who finds it impossible to get the best out of anyone, so how can we be too harsh on anybody.

A player I would throw at everyone when it comes to not judging too harshly under a poor coach is Dom Peyroux in his time at Saints. The guy was a laughing stock under Cunningham, a joke of a signing for Saints. Holbrook comes in and in no time he turns him in to one of the better second rowers in superleague. At Saints under Cunningham guys like Makinson, Percival, Lomax, Thompson, Knowles etc were all doing ok, some good games, some not so good and were generally drifting. They went up a few levels under Holbrook and Saints fans now think most would make a World 13.

100% correct

I haven't made my mind up on Smith yet
But if we kept Lam and bought any half back in the world very little would change (ok, of course we would be better in certain ways but we've seen it with wire/Hull etc that a star player doesn't make a TEAM).

Keep Smith and bring in a very good coach as tou say above we will improve and individually we will see if certain players inc Smith are up to it whilst also seeing us improve.

Best player ot best coach, if I could pick i would take Abest coach every day ofntje week.

I feel at the moment we can’t have both Smithies and Partington in the team together, we don’t have the firepower to carry their lack of go forward. That said I think both have a decent future in the game, if Partington can put a stone or two on in the next few years as he grows up to add to his agression he could become a good prop. Smithies I don’t think will ever be anything more than a tackling machine which again can complement certain packs well but not when your senior props are Brad Singleton and Tony Clubb.

Again I wouldn’t judge Smithies and Partington too harshly at the minute. We talk of a lack of go forward but statistically they were ok on Friday with Smithies making 96 metres and Partington 86 metres. They both went at over 7 metres per carry. I like to compare them to Morgan Knowles because all three have that natural aggression and all have started a career playing through the middle. I think both are at worst on a par with where Knowles was early in his Saints career. I put some stats on here recently comparing our two to Knowles just last season and Smithies average gain was just in front and Partington’s just behind. Now both are a few seasons behind Knowles in their development, so I think that’s pretty impressive. I’m a big fan of Knowles, he’s kicked on this season and the bigger the game, the better he is but he has every advantage in the world that our two don’t have. He has guys like Walmsley and Paasi punching holes a mile wide in defences. Even so he ran for 56 metres the other night in an embarrassingly one sided game for his team. He gets lots of plaudits and rightfully so but I just think it highlights that things aren’t always what they seem.

Our two need some help, much like many many other players in the team. They need some proper props to play with and more importantly they need a proper coach, a coach who will realise playing in the middle of the field is a tough gig and not one you want to be throwing loads of kids in to all at once. We’re in one of those moments currently where every single player is being questioned in one way or another but I’d look elsewhere than worrying about Partington and Smithies long term. These two lads will be absolutely fine if the club can sort its act out. A proper coach will surely realise Smithies should be getting eased in from the second row and alongside Partington should be getting dipped in and out of the side. They also shouldn’t be playing in the same starting pack as Shorrocks, Pearce-Paul and Havard.

In short, they’ll both be excellent players for us long term.

I have also noticed that Byrne has been getting through the line and is a bit more difficult to put down in the last few games which equally a good sign

As I (poorly) articulated at the time when you first posted those statistics; Knowles isn’t playing the type of game Smithies/ Partington are. He spent a lot of time early in his career at hooker and is essentially a link now between the halfbacks. Couple that with him being the leader of our defence setting our line speed (one of the key reasons we were terrible against Castleford is that it was Bentley doing this), and part of the reason Paasi/ Walmsley can punch holes is because he’s on their shoulder providing doubt. All in all; a hell of a lot of work that doesn’t translate into metres tackles or assists.

A closer comparison for me would be when Richards and Thompson broke through into the first team. The we’re playing a similar role to Smithies/ Partington (albeit with more senior players around them). Pretty much all Saints fans thought Richards would be the one to make it, and didn’t see why Thompson was getting game time … that settled down after a couple of seasons … the question for Wigan is are they two Richards, two Thompsons or something in between

All the young players mentioned have potential but should have been drip fed into the first team with quality, experienced players around them. Poor recruitment and injuries over the last few years has meant over reliance on them and they’ve been flogged. They try hard but as has often been described, it’s men against boys most weeks.
Smith worries me though. He’s obviously got bags of potential but it has to start coming through soon. Poor passes, poor kicks etc and far too frequent. He was completely outshone by Dodds on Friday. My biggest fear is we don’t replace Hastings and trust Smith to step up. I think this could be almost suicidal for our future.
Mago and Ellis coming in can’t hurt but our halfback issues for 2022 are very concerning. Field showed a good glimpse of talent at Hull KR but still too untested to judge properly.

Ellis and Mago are good start to fixing our forward issues, but if that is the end of our forward recruitment then it will not be enough.

To go into the season with Mago, Ellis, Byrne, Partington and Havard is a massive gamble. If either of the new recruits ends up injured for a length of time, we are basically back to the same pack as this season, a thought I cannot even think about.

I believe we need another prop recruited, a half back and a centre. If Thornley is coming in as a starting centre and he is the best of what's available, then not only have the club lowered expectations, it shows just how far SL has dropped and just how tiny the talent pool actually is.

As kids we had superstars to idol, flair players that excited you, what do kids have now, what memories of length of the field tries, mazy runs down the wing? I remember players, games and tries from the 80s & 90s as a kid, I'd watch games back on VHS. What are kids memories of games from the last few years?

Recruitment this year is vital, we are losing fans and not generating any interest in attracting any new ones, as the product on show is so dire.

Smithies, Partington and Byrne haven’t improved since 2019.

Pack last night ages were

22
21
20
31
20
20

Bench forwards

28
20
27
22

Literally men against boys.

I’m not convinced his game is that different tbh. He’s certainly not playing a Sean O’Loughlin style role for Saints. He’s a decent link man but Partington especially can play that role himself. Ultimately the number of carries, the metres made, the average gains are very similar between our two and Knowles pre this season. It’s not a slight on Knowles at all, he’s a class act but I’m just trying to highlight that we shouldn’t be writing our two lads off because they’re not barnstorming through teams just yet. You highlight Thompson and he’s another great example of how a player can suddenly kick on a few gears, especially under a top coach and with the right players around him. I certainly didn’t see the World Class forward he now is in those first few seasons. I always felt Richards was a pudding tbh but maybe he had big raps in academy rugby.

You have to factor in that Smith had to make 26 tackles to Dodds 12. I had radio Manchester on going home and they said the 2nd half penalty count was 9:1 in Saints favour. With such an imbalance in possession it's very hard for the halfbacks to play.