I expected us to struggle this year. That would have been the case if Wane was still in charge. I do think the pattern with ourselves in 2017 and Leeds either side of that is telling. For whatever reason I think the Grand Final winners do have a high likelihood of struggling the following season, and throwing the World Club Challenge in their makes things tougher. Not that I'm saying it's a write of for any team or that it isn't conceivably possible for us to do well - just that I think that it makes things difficult.

Now throw in a few more issues, such as the loss of pivotal players, the loss of coach who was well respected by the players and helped them achieve great things, a desire from those above to change things, and it's not hard to see why things might start to go wrong.

Team selection hasn't been settled - and the best teams usually have a settled side. Lam picked his strongest side for 3 games in a row and we only got 1 win. We played 2 very good sides and lost, which isn't the worst outcome. Then Lam started changing things. Sometimes it was forced through injuries, but others just seem to be confusion over our best side. Losing to Hull and then London has obviously hit confidence and things seem to have snowballed out of control a little bit. There's no consistency in the side and no confidence and that's a bad combination.

Now Lam's team selection could be called into question but it's nothing new for a new coach to be unsure of what his best side is. When you've got established players failing to perform it's also hard for a coach to tell who he should have faith with and who needs taking out of the firing line.

Some of our issues seem to be (in no particular order):

1. Using Hardaker as if he's Tomkins. He's not a playmaker at all and doesn't get involved nearly enough as Tomkins did, but a lot of our players seem to be the same as before, gearing around the fullback creating opportunities. He's also being used as a kicker. Tomkins was our best kicker. Hardaker - on current evidence - absolutely is not, and isn't a good kicker full stop.

2. Not using one of our few decent kickers, Escare, in a position where we can actually use his kicking game.

3. Signing a player with a good kicking game and then not actually playing him.

4. Not knowing who belongs in our strongest pack. Navarrete got the chop this week, but is he worse than Tautai (who was a complete liability yet again despite actually seeming interested for once)? Isa is our back up second row but Hamlin seems to play much better there. Clubb gets picked despite seemingly not having a good game all season and generally being the worst of our props.

5. The leadership team is thoroughly uninspiring - Yes, I know the players got to pick but bloody hell it doesn't half look like we're lacking leaders. Last season along with O'Loughlin we had Bateman, a natural leader who played like one and Tomkins, a natural leader who played like one. Clubb, Farrell, Leuluai - do they play like leaders? They might be great guys off the field and the players might love them, but leaders, really? They seem nice guys. Jamie Peacock didn't seem 'nice'. Andy Farrell didn't seem 'nice'. Where's the mongrel within our team? Where are the leaders who go above and beyond what everyone expects? Where are the leaders who produce magic moments to change games?

6. The spine of the team is poor - Hardaker hasn't had time to bed in and is a completely different player to the one he's replacing and isn't a playmaker. Williams recent games are among some of his worst and he seems incapable of creating anything. We already know Leuluai isn't creative and shouldn't be playing in the halves. Sammut hasn't even been given a chance but seems unlikely to be a huge influence. Powell doesn't seem capable of creating anything and regularly seems to be outplayed by the opposite 9. O'Loughlin is a fantastic player but no longer capable of being outstanding every single week.
Last season we could make up for some of these failings. Tomkins would be the playmaker and help our halves. Bateman and Greenwood were dangerous enough to cause problems and create overlaps all by themselves. Players like Flower, Navarrete and Clubb would stifle teams with high intensity and line speed in defence. That has disappeared (except with Flower) and now our weaknesses are being badly exposed again, as they have been during difficult periods over the last few years.
If we can't get back to being a nearly flawless 'unit' where performance of the team as a hole masks the weaknesses in certain areas, we're going to struggle unless the club directly addresses these issues.

I am also not wanting to get rid of Lam ........... for now. But the pressure will increase against him, especially if we get a real hammering next week against wire. I cannot for the foreseeable future, see where our next points will come from.

As with Wane, I feel sorry for Lam too, with the total lack of money being given to the coaches to bring in what needs to be , some better quality players.

That team is the lowest quality Wigan team I've seen since the very late 1970's .

Apart from that try by Escare , the only piece of skill all evening, the game was devoid of talent and effort.

The issue we have is usually with a new coach you’d always say ‘you can’t get rid after 5 games’ but that’s normally with a coach you’ve appointed for a period of time longer then one year. Why couldn’t we get rid of Lam? He’s babysitting the group and there’s no reason we couldn’t get shut right now, then bring another interim coach in and bin him after a couple of weeks and on and on we go.

The club has created this ridiculous situation and the usual rules do not apply because this is not normal. I hope we stick with Lam until the very end, even if that means relegation because it’s what we will have brought on ourselves by going down this route and Lammy doesn’t deserve to be hung out to dry. It was and always will have been a nostalgic trip down memory lane for Lenagan and Rads. The way Rads speaks about Lam is telling, he’s his mate and he thinks the world of him and Lenagan has admitted that Edwards is one of his Wigan heroes.


I’d never heard of Michael Maguire but he wasn’t too bad...

That's the thing, we spend right up to the cap, we just spend the money poorly. Our 20-25 players are on way more than everyone else in SL, which is baffling when you have such a conveyor belt of an Academy.

No disrespect to someone like Marshall, but he should never have been given a new contract when the next good SL winger is in our Academy now.

We need to address how we allocate the money moving forward.

Harsh on Marshall that think he's a cracking player

This is far from the biggest debate - or problem - at the club but Liam Marshall should be nowhere near a Wigan shirt. It’s all opinions of course but mine is that he’s nowhere near good enough. Decent finisher - as he has proven - but the rest of his game is Widnes standard.

I find it truly odd that our wingers are getting stick, if fans think wingers are the issue then I really do wonder. It is quite clear that the issue lie elsewhere, props, 7 and 9 - basically the spine of the team, are way off the standard required and getting worse. Sort these out and the team would look much better. Also bear in mind that our first choice wingers would under normal circumstances would be Burgess and Manfredi - and I am sure they would be classed as good enough. Difficult for any winger to look good in the current team as I cannot recall any decent passes to them for a long time.

There's nothing wrong with Marshall, but that money could be better spent on a 1, 6, 7 or 9.

Well I recall before the Lam/Edwards thing was announced his name was put forward as a replacement coach in is own right by some. I was not convinced due to the fact he has never been a head coach.

I'll put forward my theory. Lam either worked out or was told by the Wigan management the Wigan fans were fed up with the style of play under Wane. Either way his mission became instantly to change it despite the fact the club just lost Sutton, Tomkins and Bateman and has also lost Mcilorum. Given he is only supposed to be here for a year and given the playing personnel available, changing the way the team played was far too ambitious. His job is in theory to keep the seat warm for Edwards. So all he had to do was keep the players playing the same way. It might not have been successful this year nor pleased the fans but that was not likely given the loss of key players anyway. Instead it seems for whatever reason he has tried to change things quite radically.

It doesn't matter if Edwards comes or not. The problem is the radical change coupled with the loss of top players. If Lam has any sense he will get together with the players and say the supposed new style is out of the window for now and he needs then to play to their strengths. It's no skin off his nose if he does. He's only here for a year but that last thing he needs is for that year to see Wigan in a relegation fight.

Maybe he saw this year as a way to enhance his coaching CV but if he did he misread how far losing those players mentioned above would affect the team.

We've clearly stopped doing whatever it is Wane had them doing in training RE: the defence. It's baffling as that was the best part of our game - you'd think if everyone around the club has been coached that way for 8+ years you wouldn't lose that knowledge with Wane going out the door.

Lam was on a hiding to nothing because two of our three best players left in the offseason and the third is 36 and his powers are waning. The attack was this awful at times last year too, but Tomkins and Bateman often took the team by the scruff of the neck and made things happen.

On a 1? Have you been watching with your eyes shut? Hardaker has been practically flawless under the high ball and in defence and is adding to his attack more every week. He’s the least of our worries!

I’m not sure we can keep going back to the 3 players who left as a valid excuse for our form. Bullock (so far) has added as much if not more than Sutton gave us, Hardaker is probably as good a fullback as we could possibly have got to replace Tomkins and Greenwood whilst he isn’t Bateman, has been superb since day one.

The only good thing Hardakre did against Huddersfield is that clean break.

He ducked out of scooping up the ball in the first half (luckily we survived) when it required him to be brave and dive at the feet of a couple of onrushing Giants, he misjudged several kicks - one he clearly didn't have a clue where it was and was turned around and provided nothing in attack.

At this point I'd move him to C and put Escare at FB - and I'm not a big fan of Morgan at FB either (he's bad defensively), but at least his pace causes problems.

If all you took from my post is the comments about the players that left you ignored at least half of it.

However I will bite about the players bit while you go and think about the rest it

The idea Bullock has added more than Sutton is absolute nonsense. Sutton was a key player last season once he came back from injury. If you do not think he was, you were not watching. Bullock is a good prospect but the idea he is like for like now is just not right.

Hardaker may be as good as we could have got but he isn't Sam Tomkins and plays a different game. He is not the leader Sam T was. It's already blindingly obvious we do not have the tactics to make the best of Hardaker.

As to Greenwood and Bateman. Greenwood was NOT his replacement. They pay on different sides for a start. They are both very good players but in case you missed it we had both of them in the back row for most of the run in to the playoffs last season and they both played in the GF. So the idea Greenwood replaced Bateman misses the fact we had arguably the best 2nd row in SL with the pair of them in it. Not just Greenwood as we have now.

These players leaving is significant. Lam is reduced to playing Faz (when fit) on the right which is the wrong side for him because Bateman left.

So I go back to what I said before. With all the changes in playing personnel being as significant as they are, trying to play a different game is too ambitious from Lam.

Spot on but Bateman was by far the biggest loss. His contribution every week was immense. Greenwood was not really his replacement, he replaced Joel Tomkins. Last year we lost two right siders and signed one left sider.