I believe, that come the end of the season, the stats will show that the best just got better.

So is Pat Richards playing Better? Etc Etc

O'Loughlin Had to do a job behind a team that struggled at various times over the past 3 or so seasons.
NEVER did his performances drop below Very Good in my book and a lot of the time he was having to do this whilst covering other players backsdes etc as well.
This often meant he was putting in 40+ tackles as well as helping to run the show.

Using stats like that is a bit like Saints fans using the argument that Jon Wilkin has "X" amount of medals and Lockers having "0" medals so he must be the better player, Or 18 months ago the Saints fans telling us that their super dooper kids were better than ours (They weren't they were just getting an easier ride in the 1st team because their 1st team was better) when those who watched and studied the youngsters Knew that Joel Tomkins was/is a far better player than Paul Clough for example.

Everyones "Stats" will improve generally if the team continues to play well and dominate, that doesn't mean that every individual is playing better, it's often just the case that because the "Team" is playing better, certain individuals aren't having to do as much work in other areas, getting more possession as they dominate more in the right areas of the field etc etc.

End of the day about 99% of people on here realise how good O'Loughlin is, about 90% always Knew how good O'Loughlin is/was.
What we don't need is someone telling us it's because he lost the captaincy to try & prove a point that "I was right" all along about the Captaincy issue as they always do, especially with tenious links.

No Management team and Lockers as Captain ala last 3 seasons and pound to a pinch of Doo Dah and his stats would be exactly the same IMO.

I think his game has improved to be honest, although again i think MM can take credit for this rather than SOL. I feel the ability has always been there going forward, but like so many of our players they were shackled under Noble. In my opinion he has been the best 13 in the league for some time, but being used as an extra creative outlet and being allowed to show his ability has taken him to the next level.

Its a phrase that is banded about too often but I feel World Class sums him up. I hope he remains fit enough to prove it again come the 4 nations.

I've already said he was the best but rightly or wrongly a player who's stats such as assists improve or whatever will be described as improving in certain peoples eyes. On the "I was right" part that you're clearly referring to Dave on, people are using Amos Roberts performances this year to justify what they have previously said about him ie "I was right". But that's not Dave so its ok. Some people think he's improved, some don't, the people who think he's improved are split as to whether its all down to the coach, all down to losing his captaincy or a bit of both, they're all different opinions. Dave is giving his, what's the problem?

If the team improves (Mainly down to coaching etc) then surely Lockers will have more time/chances etc to use those techniques & Skills as we are dominating field position etc & in we are more often in better areas on the field to benefit from these attributes and on more occasions over the course of a game?

Tenious link I know, but if Gerrard isn't playing as well at Liverpool this year as previous years is that down to him not being World class anymore or the fact that Liverpool as a team (Maybe Benitex isn't inspiring them etc to continue with the tenious links theme ) are playing worse meaning Gerrard has to do more work in other areas so his attacking stats don't look as good as previous years?
I know which one I think it is!

I'm not sure that Noble "Shackled" O'loughlin, I just don't think his team were playing well enough to get the best out of his attributes particularly in attack because of the extra work they/he had to do in defensive situations.

The one atatement I will COMPLETELY AGREE with you on is the "World Class" bit.

It's a shame Farrell etc couldn't stay with the club a couple more seasons and the club have a smoother transition from one era to another at the time O'Loghlin was making his way into the Back 3 because his form in 2004 was fantastic although at the time he was only around 21/22 years of age!
The injury early 2005 set him back and I don't think we started to see him re-emerge until 2007. Since then he has been the best 13 in the league by some distance for me and the improved set up at Wigan, coaching etc, are improving the team as a whole and this makes it easier for him to "Look Good", If the previous seasons teams had played this well, he would have been looked upon as Playing equally well in those seasons as well IMO.

I agree with you whole heartedly, apart from posters in the past have had their opinions totally disected & ripped apart by other posters and been almost ridiculed as having ridiculous opinions whilst almost stating their opinions as "Fact" whilst not liking having their own opinions critiqued.
Maybe some people are having a go back (Not me BTW as me & XXXXO seem to have an uneasy silent truce these days now that Mickey's gone & Roberts is doing well) but as the old saying goes "If your going to dish it out, you's better learn to take it"

PS

Just putting this on now to say I hadn't seen the other thread (Haven't seen a coach make such a difference I think it's called) with all the back biting so apologies if I've "Jumped on the Bandwagon as believe it or not I wasn't!

Please see my edit that I must of done while you were responding.

Fair point bud

Agree with everything you say and i've made these points to numerous opposition fans over the years.

It makes me smile when I get people saying Wild, Purdham or Langley(a super second rower but never a 13) should be at 13 for England or GB before him.

Thanks for that Dave. Nowhere in my post did I resort to the personal abuse you've been getting (which is indefensible), so I'm not sure how you class a call for you to withdraw what you said about Lockers as being "as OTT" as some of the personal attacks you have been the victim of.

I did criticise your arguments because they are wrong and are unfair to a player who deserves better. The logic in your argument suggests that Lockers will play worse in those games in which he is captain than when he isn't captain. There is no evidence for that, nor is there any evidence that he is playing to a higher standard now than last season - until he got injured last season he was playing superbly with far less support from players around him who were unfit and/or not as committed to the cause as Lockers.

What is unfortunate is that at a time when Lockers should simply be congratulated - for playing superbly, for taking his demotion so well, for continuing to be an example to other players of what Wigan as a club should stand for - people including you still go out of their way to find fault with him. Frankly I'm sick of it. I can't imagine fans of other clubs with a local lad playing the way that Lockers is and has been playing in recent seasons, with his commitment to the cause would ever attack their player in the way that Wigan fans have done to Lockers. The fact that it is still continuing, even when the guy is in absolutely outstanding form and playing a key role in us leading the table is just unbelievable. Fans of other clubs reading some of the stuff posted on this board about Lockers over the years must have been rubbing their hands with glee.

I've always been a big fan of SOL, even when he was copping abuse on here from some.

Cracking player. Hits hard in defence, runs good lines, can break the line and has a good passing game.

With Sinfield performing admirably from 9 for England, I think SOL will be a shoe in at 13 (Burgess can play anywhere in the pack without it impacting his game in any noticeable way IMO).

Burgess to play in the second row for me alongside Ellis(thats is some second row).

If we had a four nations game tomorrow i'd go-

Graham Sinfield Peacock
Ellis Burgess
O'Loughlin

thats one hell of a pack with morley on the bench its looking very strong

Peacock and Morley's impending retirement is worrying though.