And Karl Pryce.

It all depends on form really but I'll go:

1. Phelps
2. Roberts/Ainscough
3. Gleeson
4. Carmont
5. Richards
6. Sam
7. Deacon
8. Coley
9. Leuluai
10. Prescott
11. Hansen/Mossop
12. Bailey/Mossop
13. O'Loughlin

14. Paleaesina
15. McIllorum
16. Fielden/O'Carroll/Mossop
17. Joel/Mossop

This is where your getting the wrong end of the stick and getting your knickers in a twist. None of us are saying they are bad players and haven't done well, but none of them are showing us what they are capable of on a consistent basis, Joel had a poor year last year compared to the previous year and yes HH is very underrated but needs to show more in attack as we know he can do. it isn't saying that they can't, just that we need to see more of it, and yes the same applies for a couple of the senior players to but this is talking about the younger players, not the senior ones.

Just because they are Wigan lads doesn't make them gods gift as you would read on here at times. There's been games last season when a couple of the players have made far more crucial errors than some of the scapegoats and they hardly get a mention, but just because they are the younger players it's alright to make the mistake. This is what we're trying to say, they are more established young players now have enough experience to take the flack if deserved. If they need to get out of their comfort zone then so be it, they can't get off lightly just because they're local lads and a couple of them need to prove their worth more just like a couple of the senior players do.

I agree with the majority of that but the one i can't really get my head round is Mossop. How in any way, shape or form can next year be make or break for him?

He's had a handful of chances and has been very impressive. He's big, strong and has a good engine. He had a blinder in the away league game at Knowsley road last season which was a great indication of his talent under pressure and he's just going to get better.

If you go back NK you will see I haven't mentioned Mossop and also said to the captain that you can't really include Mossop in as he's only had 1 year. I think he's going to be a massive player for us and can't wait to see how he develops as a player.

Ahhh fair do's.

Thought it was a strange one. He's looked class hasn't he and has all the tools to become a top player. I had him in my starting line up on the other thread. I really want to see us get him plenty if games.

I like all our young backrowers tbh. I know Tomkins made his errors and Hansen is a little dull if you like but they all have their own qualities and the backrow looks to have a nice balance to it. When we consider theres guys like Farrell waiting to push through aswell they all will have to be on their toes.

We're blessed in that department.

What has any of that got to do with what I wrote which was basically saying I think the opinion they are in some sort of last chance saloon is wrong?

It seems you are the one who has got the wrong end of the stick about the point I was making and getting your knickers in a twist.



Who mentioned anything about them being Wigan lads? What has that got to do with it? I know they have not had perfect seasons but who did?

You say they made crucial errors. Did more experienced players not make crucial errors? I don't think so.

They are young players who simply do not have the experience of someone who has played the game who is say age 28 or older. J Tomkins played 3 games in 2007 and so has been a first team regular for two seasons. The players who get most stick have much more experience.

There is one exception and that is Phelps. He is also a young player and has made crucial mistakes. His contract is up at the end of next season so is he in the same last chance saloon as well? If not why not? Because he isn't from Wigan?

He is no better than any of those players mentioned but is a fans favourite is my guess as to why his name has not been bracketed with the players being discussed as in the last chance saloon.

Dave

It's not make or break for any of them IMO. To write players of their age and experience off after next season is just daft.

Dave

Nobody is writing them off Dave, just saying that a few of them need a rocket up their and get out of their comfort zones. We know they can play well, but the main ones been mentioned often than not last year didn't produce the level of performances we know they can. HH has a fantastic work rate but can offer more in attack, Joel in the year before last was sensational but hardly shown any of that this year and IMO had more average games than good ones and the likes of Daryl Goulding still maybe young but they've had enough years of experience to know what they should be capable of, it isn't as if they are rookie players in their first year.

But they simply have not had that much experience (bar Hansen). Just because they have been around along time doesn't mean they are experienced players.

Goulding has been around the first team since 2005 yet is only 21 and made his debut in 2005 with one appearance. In 2006 he played 8 SL games games, 15 in 2007, 19 in 2008 and 9 in 2009 (not counting a few games for Salford on the wing).

So his Wigan appearances to date total 52 spread over 5 seasons. Averaging just over 10 games per season. Compare that to an established senior professional e.g. Pat Richards who has played 99 SL games in four seasons. An average close to 25 games a season.

Had Goulding been around this long AND averaging 25 games a season you may have a point but he just hasn't so I don't think you do.

I also don't accept the premise that Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding were actually poor last season or in a comfort zone. When he played Goulding played well and both Hansen and J Tomkins performances were IMO the least of our worries.

Dave

Alot of Gouldings Wigan appearences came from the bench aswell i'd imagine. He's had a decent crack of the whip though imo and probably should have showed a little more improvment then he has done so far. I think alot of people don't think he has the physical tools to make it but i'd love for him to prove us wrong.

As for Hansen and J Tomkins. I just think Hansen does his job and does it pretty well. He's never going to be Gaz Hock but what he brings to the side is important and will be especially important in McGuire's regime that to me looks to be about workrate, defence, effort and commitment. He'll continue to bring all of those.

Moving on to Joel Tomkins i was dissapointed with his season last year but there was still enough in it to sugges and he's going to be a quality player. He's a proper athlete and a real big lad. He let silly errors creep back into his game last year but he strikes me as a lad that needs confidence to play well. The season didn't start well for the side and he never seemed to really recover from that. I'd back the coaching staff and especially Shuan Wane to get the best from him next season.

goulding sayed he enjoyed going to salford so he couls get first team starts but... when he came back to wigan he said that he was glad to be back at wigan

IMO that is a very good assessment of the three players mentioned. I've watched Darrell since he was 16 years of age and expected more of him, but he hasn't delivered yet. I do think that this season will be his last chance, particularly with the likes of Marsh, Thornley and Charnley pushing for chances.

Hansen to me is fine, he is another like Phil Bailey who gets through a lot of in noticed work.

Joel didn't quite kick on last year and as NK says made quite a few costly errors, but I think he will come good, he's big and quick.

All three are relatively young and I believe very good trainers so we'll have to see how they go this season under the new regime.

Everybody deserves a fair crack of the whip this season under a new regime, but beyond that with so many players off contract, it will force players who perhaps are thought to be under performing to buck up there ideas.

Hopefully we'll see under this new regime a willingness to drop players and change the team from week to week, because of both poor performances from individuals as well as changing the team to suit are own needs for defeating different opponents, rather than going with the same team each week come rain or shine.

I'm trying to think of players who were in the first team when Noble arrived that have considerably improved under his coaching and guidance, and I honestly can't think of one player who has. Perhaps under this new regime we'll see current first team players add to there game's elements that have been missing to take them and the team to that next level, the team's performance will only rise and improve when individuals performance's rise and improve.