Yes. Four out of five seasons ending with us winning neither the CC nor the GF would be a terrible showing given the foundations Maguire laid and the talent Wane has had at his disposal. Now we are playing some really poor rugby in attack.

In 70 games Maguire was only beaten by 10+ on three occasions (4%) and the record deficit was 27. Teams had to come up with something special to turn us over and even we were almost never trounced. Under Wane we have been beaten by 10+ in 21 games (13%) and suffered five deficits that would have been records under Maguire in the past two seasons alone.

To sum up, our attack is poor, we don't turn up some weeks and get thoroughly battered, and we aren't winning trophies. I'm not saying bringing back Maguire is the way forward but it's definitely time for a change after this year barring a grand final victory.

Well, my first thought after watching the two CC semi-finals was, that looks vanishingly unlikely. We would need a sea-change in attacking form to get near the best of the rest.

Agreed. Cranking out close and hard-fought wins in league matches is one thing, but responding positively to the intense atmosphere of a big game seems to be beyond the current Wigan team. The one upside of not crabbing a win over Hull in the semi is that we can't now be humiliated on the national stage that is Wembley stadium.

But I agree with everyone else. All season we've waited for the turn-around in form, and barring a couple of minor false dawns, it's never come. In fact, we're now at the business end and it feels farther away than ever. The injuries have played a part in that but everyone else has had injuries too - absent players can't be an excuse forever (especially when several of them are absent on suspension for yet further incidents of stupid indiscipline, another disease we seem to suffer badly from at present).

If we carry on like this, and crash out without even reaching Old Trafford, it will be very hard to see us carrying on as usual without some kind of major shake-up.

How effective were those metres, Shaul looked dangerous when he attacked the line, can the same be said for Tomkins, there wasn't once during that game were I was worried about him having the ball, I use to worry everytime he got the ballon his previous spell. I still think he will come good,but I'll doubt it will be until next year.

They must have counted sideways metres for tomkins

If they counted sideways metres for Minichello he'd have broken records by now.

I think Sam is carrying the ankle injury he picked up a couple of weeks ago.

Since he came he has played much ofhis game from dummy half rather than coming into the line.

His first few games back were great, he's been a different player in the past two.

Sidewards? He must be one of, if not the best attacking backrower in the league, caused Wigan lots of problems and would walk into your team, there is only Bateman from your backrower I'd swap for him. Outstanding player.

Rather than souring all the good will that your lot won last weekend for a good performance by your team and some old school banter from your fans, why not concentrate on the rest of your season instead of trying to score points on here now the game is over?

Not point scoring, but if someone puts something about one of players that I feel incorrect that I will challeng it, why not question the poster who mentioned a Hull player, twice when you include the poster who mentioned Shaul on a Wigan forum.

Anyway you will be fine, you will win the LLS shield now that your main two competitors have distractions and at least make the grand final.

Wow!!! Talk about getting your excuses in early!!

Do we have to attack opposition fans every time they come on here? He's not said anything wrong

No excuses, I'm happy with how the season has gone and we have exceeded all expectations already, history shows teams who make the cup often take the eye off the all ball when in the up final.

There isn't much between the 3 teams and with getting players back and no final, if expect you to win the league, both us and Warrington won't be far off though and it will be a tough Semi whoever you play.

Next year is the key for Tomkins after a good off season, I think we'll be better able to see where he is after that.
Hopefully from a Wigan point of view he won't be involved with England this autumn (and to be fair his form doesn't justify a call up), a good couple of months rest and then a good pre-season and with a bit of luck we'll get the Tomkins back that we love and everybody else is terrified of.

To get that we need all the players around him to perform, if not he's easy to mark. He's only going to be effective if he's running the ball and he's got options.