Thanks for the positive notes. However, this thread is less about defence, which seems fine, but more about a lack of attack, borne out by our low scoring. Yes, we did well in 2013, but that was two years after Madge left, with a core of players used to playing with him. Since then, we've lost Harris and Deacon, and have become so predictable, we are easy to defend against.

Shaul ran the ball for just 4 metres more than Tomkins on Friday, despite Tomkins having one less carry, and those figures are skewed a little as Shaul had the one run from a Hull offload.

Some of the hysteria from some of our fans is pretty laughable (mostly from people who've wanted him out since 2012).

I've always been a supporter of SW, but if we go through another season trophyless then a shake up is required and if there is a genuine better option available then it may well be time for him to move on. The brand of rugby we have played over the past couple of seasons has been awful and I can't really get my head around why. People say that SW hung on to Madge's coattails but he put a lot of emphasis on the skills side of things in preseason before 2012 and that is the most consistent, most exciting and best to watch rugby under either coaches tenure.

Yes. Four out of five seasons ending with us winning neither the CC nor the GF would be a terrible showing given the foundations Maguire laid and the talent Wane has had at his disposal. Now we are playing some really poor rugby in attack.

In 70 games Maguire was only beaten by 10+ on three occasions (4%) and the record deficit was 27. Teams had to come up with something special to turn us over and even we were almost never trounced. Under Wane we have been beaten by 10+ in 21 games (13%) and suffered five deficits that would have been records under Maguire in the past two seasons alone.

To sum up, our attack is poor, we don't turn up some weeks and get thoroughly battered, and we aren't winning trophies. I'm not saying bringing back Maguire is the way forward but it's definitely time for a change after this year barring a grand final victory.

Well, my first thought after watching the two CC semi-finals was, that looks vanishingly unlikely. We would need a sea-change in attacking form to get near the best of the rest.

Agreed. Cranking out close and hard-fought wins in league matches is one thing, but responding positively to the intense atmosphere of a big game seems to be beyond the current Wigan team. The one upside of not crabbing a win over Hull in the semi is that we can't now be humiliated on the national stage that is Wembley stadium.

But I agree with everyone else. All season we've waited for the turn-around in form, and barring a couple of minor false dawns, it's never come. In fact, we're now at the business end and it feels farther away than ever. The injuries have played a part in that but everyone else has had injuries too - absent players can't be an excuse forever (especially when several of them are absent on suspension for yet further incidents of stupid indiscipline, another disease we seem to suffer badly from at present).

If we carry on like this, and crash out without even reaching Old Trafford, it will be very hard to see us carrying on as usual without some kind of major shake-up.

How effective were those metres, Shaul looked dangerous when he attacked the line, can the same be said for Tomkins, there wasn't once during that game were I was worried about him having the ball, I use to worry everytime he got the ballon his previous spell. I still think he will come good,but I'll doubt it will be until next year.

They must have counted sideways metres for tomkins

If they counted sideways metres for Minichello he'd have broken records by now.

I think Sam is carrying the ankle injury he picked up a couple of weeks ago.

Since he came he has played much ofhis game from dummy half rather than coming into the line.

His first few games back were great, he's been a different player in the past two.

Sidewards? He must be one of, if not the best attacking backrower in the league, caused Wigan lots of problems and would walk into your team, there is only Bateman from your backrower I'd swap for him. Outstanding player.

Rather than souring all the good will that your lot won last weekend for a good performance by your team and some old school banter from your fans, why not concentrate on the rest of your season instead of trying to score points on here now the game is over?