MM team won the double two years ago.. but they had already slipped under Wane...

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Faz and Charnley.

He brought through what he needed and that's the way it should be. Both of the youngsters he signed improved the side.

It's laughable that you idolise Wane but have so little respect for arguably the best coach on the planet.

Players who played in the double finals who made their debut under SW:

Thornle
Green
Smith
Flower
Dudson
Taylor

Players who played in the double finals who made their debut prior to MM:

Tomkins
Goulding
Richards
McIllorum
Hansen
Mossop
O'Loughlin
Tuson

How you can say that was MM's team is beyond me, most of the players he signed; Deacon, Lima, Hoffman, Finch etc had all left at this point. What an odd comment to make.

We can't belittle Maguire, he was incredible for us and he's an amazing coach.

On the same hand lets not play down Wanes achievements! He has contended with far more then Madge ever had to and won things with teams with lower quality players in them. Madge raised our levels here to what they should have been based on the quality of squad we had but Wane has actually over achieved at times IMO.

He's far from perfect but I find it staggering he could be written off so soon.

For me its simple where we're going wrong and quite simple how we correct it

All we need to do is control our aggression and the ruck rather than the current reckless game plan we seem to be adopting.

Poor coaching has caused us to lose focus around the ruck area, and in our aggression. How many times over the past few weeks have we seen our players fly in, attempting the big hit, only to fail and either ricochet off another player, give away a cheap needless penalty, or help create a gap in our defence for the opposition to exploit?

This is leading our defence to be unstructured, us constantly scrambling in defence, players being out of position, and wasting energy so that when we get the ball we make silly errors!

Wane's 'beat em up', reckless aggression is not working, not least cause we're not actually big enough as a team to assert dominance! All we need to do is go back to basics!

Look at how souths controlled the game against st Helens, and you'll realise not too long ago we used to play like that. Problem is, we're not now controlling the ruck because we're attempting to be overly aggressive and constantly flying in on our defence.

Go back to the basics - strong 3 men tackles, wrestling to position the player and slow the PTB as we did under madge, will give the defence time to set its structure and stop us running around like a pub team, with no structure or plan, trying to put in the stupid one big hit which we somehow think will assert our dominance!

Do this, and we will win games! We have the talent, capability and skill but poor coaching is causing the problem at the moment!

Being reckless / creating mayhem and having a free reign (as per his much publicised speech) doesn't cut it and we simply need to be cleverer than this as teams are currently exploiting every weakness there ever was with this tactic! RL is a simple game - control the ruck and be clever with ball in hand.....we have the talent to do the latter, but our poor defensive strategy is leading to us not only giving ball away and leaking tries, but taking the juice out our plays when we need it!!!!

At Bradford after Smith laid the foundations as a clack Elliot took the glory and Noble rode the wave despite being ridiculously average as a coach.

I feel Maguire did a stunning job at Wigan Wane has ridden the wave and momentum but now as it wears off this is his team. At the moment he is not good enough. Skill level is shocking mentality is wrong and recruitment has been shocking.

As for youth...what is the obsession with Wiganers?! We need a winning team not a team full of kids!

Young players should earn the right by taking shirts off the older players backs by performing not just getting given them because they were born in the town.

Our chairman talks about Wigan as a global brand but we are currently ruled by a very insular mentality.

So he's only changed the methods now we didn't win anything in 2014? Have a day off mate, you can't have it both ways. Either SW gets all the credit and all the blame for anything since MM left or MM gets all the credit and all the blame.

To say we only won because of MM and only lose because of SW is an asinine argument.

Well thought through.
He's a god and can't do no wrong.
I'm such an arris for missing that.

Nah...he publicly stated we will play a different way this season.

At least he was honest with that.

We didn't lose much in those years either. The odd rollocking, neither here nor there for the odd loss when you are wining most games. It's got to be easy to coach a wining team and one that has experienced players in it.

Wane now has to prove he can drag a team up from the deck and if his reaction to defeat is always to ball them out and flog them in training then eventually the players will not play for him anymore, you can bet on that. They will want him to fix the problems but if the solution is always the same and it doesn't work, what would you do?

I personally find the push up comments embarassing.

What next oranges at half time with a fag?

We are supposed to be professional, push ups as punishment is not that.

Give me 20 you lazy fork..

When Wane first took over he said he was going to do things differently. I could not believe it at the time and I am sure it was debated on here. Why change a winning formula?

He said it again recentlyhttps://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/shaun-still-wigans-wane-man-8443966rl

I was keen for Wane to take over as I thought it would bring continuity but from the off he decided he knew better and I was stunned when he said that. He clearly still thinks it's "my way, or no way".

He has also said he would change things for 2015 and its clear we don't play the same sort of game as we did under MM.

The question is has Wane got the humility and brains to accept he might not know best and could learn a thing or two from looking to other coaches, one of whom would be MM?

Personally, I have my doubts but something has got to change.

One thing I will say is that spectacularly-executed face-palm inducing defensive blunders, such as the fistful Charnley provided tonight, are very, very bad for a player's career. No professional can afford to draw attention to his own inadequacies for very long before confidence is fatally undermined.