How is that the truth?

Hampshire played 7 first-team games in 2013 and 8 last year (would've been more if he wasn't injured).
Williams played 4 in 2013 and 23 last year.
And Burgess played almost every game last year.

They've either been around or certainly at least training full-time with the first team for at least 18 months now. Did Williams or Burgess even line up for the U19's last year?

Hell, Bateman is only a year older than them but we don't give him the same slack.

In a sense it is the structure of the game that is at fault. Wigan think they have future stars here and are being forced to give opportunities to kids in order to keep them happy, otherwise they move elsewhere. However it is painfully clear that these kids are nowhere near ready to play full back or half back in a top Super League team. Ideally they should be given another year or two at Reserve team/A team/ U 20 level before being promoted to the first team. Wigan are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If Hampshire/Williams aren't played then they start getting itchy feet, we then stand to lose them.

On Burgess. I agree that fans should NEVER barrack their own players, it's unforgivable. But Joe has opened himself up to the mindless idiots, and he will get more of it before long. My guess is that Manfredi will be playing a lot more than Burgess. Mind you Joe may need to get used to it (the barracking), Aussie crowds are not universally known for their clear minded and even handed attitude to Poms!

The first 40 was worrying yesterday but I remember having the same thoughts in pre-season in 2013 particularly against Wire for Westwood's testimonial. That day it looked like men against boys in regards to size, likewise yesterday. It is obvious Cunningham has bulked up the Saints side in terms of both fat and muscle, even players like Wilkin and Turner are carrying substantially more weight this year by the looks of it. Now carrying body fat in is not necessarily a bad think in RL, there are some sports science experts claiming that there is no need to train for body fat loss for events <120 minutes. I was surprised how lean and small our side was compared to Saints.

We also need to consider that we were missing 6/7 players yesterday whom the majority will be in the first 17. It's a long season and I'm not stressed about yesterday as we at least showed some heart in the second half. I'm pretty sure we'll be right for Widnes.

Widnes beat us last week mate. Didn't you win the friendly last year and went on to win the double.

These games mean nothing in reality.

How did we do in pre-season games last year?

Saints were missing Wilkin and LMS out of their pack we were missing Mossop, Tautai, Flower and Lockers. We started with Sutton as starting prop which IMO was always a mistake. A back row of Bateman, Faz and Patrick is undersized too. All with 100% hindsight of course!
If we play that pack v Hudds, Wire, Catalans, Saints again and Leeds we'll get battered just the same as yesterday.
FWIW I reckon Shaun's pack v Widnes in 10 days will be something like -
Crosby, McIlorum, Clubb, J Tomkins, L Farrell & O'Loughlin with Mossop, Tautai & Patrick off the bench. That lot can be as aggressive and abrasive as anyone wants. When Flower returns in April our pack will be as good as any and better than most.

BTW anyone know what Dan Sarginson's injury is?

Not sure what it is but he said he's now fit to play and could get a few minutes against Workington.

I read Sarginson had a groin injury somewhere and he's touch and go for Widnes. Wane didn't give any guarantees on anybody being fit for Workington or Widnes but he did seem to suggest some of the guys that missed yesterday would play in his interview on Wigan TV.

Before I start I'd just like to say that I'm not reading too much into preseason matches so my top 3 is still Wire, Wigan, Saints.

Are any of you concerned about your preseason results? Any players that have surprised or failed to deliver? Thoughts on the season ahead after the preseason friendlies?

I think we need to cut Williams some slack. Neither of the half backs will look back on the game with any satisfaction.
I've said previously that this year really is a transitional season due to the change at halfback and prop.
I didn't go to the game but watched on Wigan tv and to me Saints basically out "Wiganed" us. They were far more aggressive, energetic and in the first half made very few basic errors. They will be the team to beat this season.
I personally think that Williams and Smith are too similar however, SW knows them both far better than me so you have to give the partnership time to gel.
The overall poor display by our forwards was far more worrying for me. Size is obviously important however, we lacked direction and composure.
SW has got a busy couple of weeks in front of him to sort out some of the issues but he will learned several things from yesterday over and above the performance of the half backs. Tomkins ain't a centre and he never will be. Hampshire does not look like a full back and in all probability won't be the long term solution to this problem. Crosby needs to run with same aggression he puts in his tackling
I think going forward he will start with Hampshire on the bench with either Williams or Smith covering the hooker role if MM can't/doesn't play the full 80 minutes.
Overall a very disappointing performance but hopefully it's a case of getting this type of performance out of our system.
I for one expect an up down season until Flower is back and Mossop has confirmed his ongoing match fitness. A little patience will be needed in the short term.

I heard somebody coming out of the ground saying Williams is rubbish and calling him not fit to burn which is a typical attitude in some sections of our support! The lad is a top class young player but he needs time and support to develop and will have his ups and downs. To judge him on a game were half his eventual first choice pack is missing and write him off is pathetic.

I said in the off season I have no worries going with the three young lads because they'll push each other and drive each other on. If Williams does struggle early doors this season then Hampshire may get a go but in truth I think Sam Powell will get the spot when he's back. I think Powell may have been kept away from the 6 jersey to keep him away from the limelight a little and to take the pressure off.

Whoever gets the spot short term or longer term needs patience and most will show it. Wigan have looked like the side that turned up at Bradford and Wakey last year in these friendlies but come Widnes I expect the standards that we showed in the last few weeks of the season and the play offs. That side will give whoever is at 6 far more room to work with then they've had these past two weeks.

Must admit I am not a big fan of pre-season friendlies. For the most part they are simply an opportunity for the players to blow away the cobwebs and for the coach to try a few different combinations.

By the way Jerri Seu Seu was an awesome player for Wigan.......in the friendlies!

For the love of God PLEASE do not use the phrase "TRANSITIONAL YEAR" again. It seems to have become a way of happy clappers justifying failure at our club. We've heard it every season for the past 10 years as well. Even when we won the double!

I don't see what the great panic is about our pack. The only top end player we have lost is Scott Taylor. Who didn't even play the last few months of the year or in the playoffs.

Taylor/Dudson/James OUT
Tautai/Mossop/Patrick IN

6 is an issue but personally I think Sam Powell will have that spot nailed within the first half of the year.

Think your all going overboard about pack weakness given the players you had out.

Having said that, well be interesting to see how reliable SOL and Mossop are this year and there appears to be some confusion in the halves but it's a long season and the young lads will be different players in September to what they are now.