Yes I can if I haven't gone on record agreeing with him, which, as far as I'm aware, I haven't ... and neither have many other Wigan fans. The main response on this board to those who crowed about McGuire's injury was disgust. So while nearly all Wigan fans will agree with Clarke that McGuire cheated, not all of them will agree that he 'got what he deserved'. So it's not as simple as you try to make it, and we can comfortably distance ourselves from him - especially when certain Leeds fans are trying to claim that Clarke is somehow speaking for Wigan, which you know he isn't. Wigan have made no official response to these stupid accusations by Peacock and McClennan at all.



There's nothing naive in being annoyed by a foul that denies you a try in the last 10 seconds when you're only 1 point behind. Just try to think about that for one minute instead of joining the Brian McClennan self-justification stampede. However, you're right on one score - Wigan should have won the game before then, and in the end mainly have themselves to blame.



I said "in recent matches between us". However you want to spin it, a 50 yard penalty with 5 seconds to go was scant reward for Wigan, given the extent of McGuire's crime. But there have been other examples that were even more clear cut. The shaking of the goal-posts, which went unpunished (I'd like to see one of us try to get away with that). Buderus being let off for next weekend, despite a blatant spear-tackle. Ablett staying on the field after the assault on Sam T. Peacock staying on the field after the assault on Sam T, Senior staying on the field after the face kick on Joel T - which was far more severe than the one Joel T was guilty of - and then Farrell being sin-binned at a crucial part of the same game for a complete nothing of a technicality, which McGuire milked pathetically. Again though, Wigan should have won that Cup match - it was their fault they didn't, not the referee's. But quite a few decisions favoured you.

And then this gesticulating to the crowd as well - other teams do it, but Leeds seem to becoming the worst. You really should be reprimanded for it, but as far as I'm aware you never have been. It's not just Wigan fans who feel that Leeds occasionally seem to enjoy undue influence. But I think if Gary Hetherington didn't spend so much time at Red Hall each week, people would be less suspcious.

I'm aware, by the way, that this sounds like one of those long, boring laundry lists of disdain that some opinionated posters specialise in - but you challenged the point, so I offer that as evidence.

That's a pretty comprehensive post and really hits the nail on the head. Sinfield is a better ref than Ellery ever was and some of what Leeds have got away with this season is laughable.

Still, the dignified silence coming from the Wigan camp is inspiring me. I honestly think we will go there on Saturday and win comfortably. I also think that given half a chance saints would've taken Leeds over Wigan or or Huddersfield.


BTW Cruncher - you missed Coley's comedy dismisal in the league game at their place as well.

Which of course means he has mentioned Wigan, which was my point in the first place. Still struggling to understand your's, unless it was to agree with me, in which case; cheers for that.

P.S. "5 Seconds"...I've told you a million times not to exaggerate!

Leeds do seem to be running a little scared .........and who can blame them?

With Deacon back in the running, Wigan must surely go into this game as favourites.

My god, reading through some of this thread it's hilarious that you have Leeds pegged as Widnes c.1986. Have any of you seen a dirty team? Leeds are not a dirty team. Neither are Wigan. Both are capable of niggling and bending the rules to fairly minor degrees, but no more than any other club.

And as for any worries that the semi-final will "kick-off"...how would that be in either teams interests given that for one thing it's playing to neither team's strenghs and for another there's the risk of individuals missing the finals? These are professional Rugby players we're talking about, looking to win matches and play in the biggest games possible. The Leeds players,at least, understand this.

Neither team are packed with Biff-merchants or brawlers. If anything, Wigan have more potential hotheads on the pitch who could get wound-up and get themselves into trouble (Tomkins brothers, Fielden), but the way you're talking about it it's going to be like an Ashes test in the 60s. It isn't.

General form over the course of the year would make us favourites. Leeds are running scared and Waney is loving it. The only downside might be the weather and the small Headingley pitch which could both act as levellers for the yorkshire OAPs.

Well said, Cruncher! You have formulated the opinions of a lot of Wigan fans -don't forget, in the same game where Ablett escaped ( ie no red/yellow card despite then being found guilty and banned) Coley was sinbinned for a "late challenge" on Burrow which, even Eddie and Stevo agreed was very harsh/incorrect.

With all due respect, what are Harrigan et al doing spending so much time on this board - why not post on the Leeds board?

The Wigan players are no angels, but I would argue there have been more "high shots" perpetrated by Leeds players this season, particularly in the games against Wigan. Annoyingly for the Wigan fans these have not been red/yellow carded, whereas Wigan suffered twice ( Farrell and Coley).

Do the Leeds fans really believe their offences ( Farrell's was milked by Mcguire rolling around on the ground) were worse than those mentioned by Cruncher - Ablett and Peacock on Sam , Senior on Joel?

That, in a nutshell, dear Loiners ( I'm old and wise enough to know your real name) is what has left so many Wigan fans aggrieved. That's what Cruncher meant by Leeds being favoured in recent matches.

Then you should be just as vigorous in distancing yourself from the Wigan fans who have supported Clarke as you are Clarke.

I didnt say it was naive to be annoyed about it. i can understand why it annoys you more. I said it was naive to think the offence was any different.
So what do you propose an appropriate penalty for obstructing the chaser is if not a penalty?
Fine, Ali takes 10mins in the bin, but it that situation it would be a purely symbolic act and is hardly an attempt to disadvantage wigan.
Chris Tuson was cautioned for dangerous contact in that game, stayed on the field
Joel Tomkins was cautioned for use of the Knees in Buderus head yet stayed on the field. Andy Coley was banned for a match for a dangerous throw on Brett Delany yet both stayed on the field so it seems an odd example.
a technicality is still an offence, a late challenge on the kicker is a late challenge on the kicker which is an automatic sin-binning and actually a removal of the potential for bias and quite a few didnt
well now you are just being silly.
and that evidence is lacking.

The thing is, with fans of all clubs there is an element of unconcious bias. In your memory the Leeds offences stack up and become a bit exaggerated but the Wigan offences are forgotten and become justified.
There is also the bias that other coaches are influencing refs and Wigan are hard done to by refs, so when a Wigan player commits a borderline offence it is the wrong decision to punish it and the fact they do simply reinforces your belief that Wigan are hard done to. If they dont it is forgotten about & you see the opposite with Leeds where borderline decisions not punished reinforce your belief Leeds get away with and when they are you forget about it when in reality, deep deep down if you are honest to yourself, even you dont beleive that refs are biased either way.

Both teams have been referred to the disciplinary 10 times in games against each other this year, that really doesnt highlight an bias towards leeds or the disciplinary favouring them.

Right this is the issue I've got with the whole diatribe that has gone on about this incident.

Let's for arguments sake say McGuire didn't obstruct Carmont, now can any Wigan fan please explain to me how you would have
definitely won the game? If McGuire didn't pull Carmont down and Richards passed the ball to Carmont that would mean that Carmont would have had bth McGuire and maybe Donald chasing him (remember, Richards wouldn't have kicked and been tackled by Donald!). Now I would say that there is no certainty Carmont would have out paced Mcguire (who remember hasn't fould Carmont so isn't in a heap on the floor with a knackered knee, he is actually still just behind him!) in fact I would put my money on him being caught.

Now, let's deal with what actually happened, the only person, who by your logic should be apologising to the Wigan fans, is actually Richards, who did have a chance to win you the game but bottled it.

It was actually Sinfield's fault for kicking on the fourth tackle in the last minute and giving Wigan time to execute a play. And Webb's fault for getting injured leaving Donald switching to fullback and no right-wing. And Wigan's fault for not being good enough on the night to keep a 14-point lead once Leeds got out of first gear.

Without all that, nobody would be talking about Danny McGuire except to say how well he played, and Leeds' best player would be playing at the weekend. For all Wigan fans' self-righteous ire, Wigan did rather well out of the last minute of that game.

sam was also in support so it wasnt just a case of a foot race between carmont and donald/mcguire, + pat would have also continued to support on the outside as any good ( and less face he is the best) winger in superleahue should. the bootom line we will never know. the facts we do know is mcguire himself saw that it was a very good and likely try scoring opportunity so he cheated and pulled george back. no other reason for him to do it

You've just proven that it wasn't a 'likely' try scoring opportunity, there were too many variables.

The cold hard fact is that you were given a very real chance to win the game (actually from a very dubious penalty as it happens!, if Mcguires hold back was given a penalty you would have had no chance) and your super duper winger and kicker blew it.

The intellectual gymnastics that produced this tissue of excuses as to why what happened is okay is impressive, if a little ludicrous.

Danny McGuire fouled George Carmont off the ball when he had a try-scoring opportunity. That's the point of discussion.

There are lots of variables - Carmont might have dropped the ball, he might not have made it to the line, he might have slipped on a banana skin that some idiot steward dropped out of his lunchbox earlier on

The only non-variable was what actually happened - McGuire's foul, which is why it is being debated so heatedly.

But please don't start talking about self-righteous ire. Wigan fans have at least some reason to be irate over what happened. McClennan and Peacock have none whatsoever, and they are the two morons whose quotes have reignited this argument.

The only fact we know for sure is that Danny Mcguire grabbed Carmonts shirt. The reason why he did it, only Danny Mcguire knows and it doesn't really matter. Wigan got the penalty, Pat Richards missed the kick. That should have been the end of the story.

What riled Leeds fans was the level of hatred and abuse which came from a vocal group of Wigan fans directed at Mcguire and other Leeds players when all that had occurred was no worse then we see in any match.

Take the Wigan v Hull KR game as an example. Briscoe stops the Wigan player from scoring by reefing the ball away when there were two in the tackle. This is no worse than Carmont being pulled back as both have illegally prevented Wigan from scoring.

Anyway, here's to a great game this weekend. Hopefully we'll be able to compete with you, but I think this is going to be a game too far.

Well said.