I have. I’ve also made multiple positive comments. That’s called balance. Every comment you make is harping back to an era when most clubs were broke, attendances weren’t any better, facilities were a breeding ground for the bubonic plague and the idea of training was a tic and pass and a few pints and cigs.

There are plenty of amateur clubs with a boost in their numbers.

You literally are one of the most clueless/obsessed with the 80’s posters I’ve come across on here. And that includes The Enforcer.

At least, like many others in Wigan, I am facing the reality of the present state of the club and the game, which unlike some on here who cannot see the wood for the trees!


You have even posted comments yourself that you are far from happy with the present state of the club and game!


As for balance, anyone who says anything different to yourself and fellow members of the clique on here is shot down in flames.

I wonder if above poster has ever thought that a lot of people (probably all) are aware of the problems within the game

they just don't feel the need on every thread to make that point over and over again and make completely irrelevant parallels with yesteryear

What does it matter what Maurice did in 1981? he couldn't do it again in 2001 never mind in 2021
Circumstances are completely different
The RFL are in a poor state, Guess what? It was as bad back in the late 70's early 80s and that bad that Mo left Wigan to try and make it better in the early 90s
How does Mo & the Gang of 4 taking us to the bring of extinction level up with anything Leneghan is doing now? they were the ones that handed the club in a way to Whelan, not anything leneghan has done.
How does it marry up that attendances even in the 80's early 90s and more interestingly at the back end of the 90s were no better than what we were getting Pre-covid?
How would Mo/RFL are anyone else coped with a pandemic in the 80s?
How were the finances of other clubs compared to now? Despite the state of RL pre covid (I don't think it's fair to compare it as of now as no-one in living memory - apart from Rogues who lived through Spanish flu and Bubonic Plague - as ever experienced anything like this) I would say that clubs such as Saints/Hull/Leeds/Catalans/Warrington etc compare favourably to how they were early 90's pre SL? In fact, given the poor foundations that Wigan were built on and a couple of defeats triggering the fall of the empire I would say Wigan also in a way weren't what we remember them wise financially

The point is - We all know what the issues are
RL in this country is struggling - Change is needed
I have my personal opinions and I will expand (rather than continually just keep saying everything used to better and slagging off other posters who won't also just say the same, because they want more substance than just everything is rubbish)

The game missed opportunities mid 2000's - The game was vibrant, we had numerous teams competing along with Catalans introduction into the League (And like someone (MattyB?) said earlier I believe this was when we were consistently competing with the Aussies - A Vibrant international game etc. Without going into the detail IMO we have stalled around 2008/09/10/11 ish and regressed from around 2015/16 onwards Despite that coinciding with Wigan's resurgence etc.
Bradford were long gone
Leeds were coming to the end of the golden generation and dipped and never really recovered
Saints were awful to average in the most for about 5 years - only returning to former glories alte 18/early 19 - Just not really as good as the 00's
Warrington, despite their rise around 10/11/12/13 never kicked on
Hull - despite a couple of CC's were pretty average
Catalans - Were just Catalans
Cas - Pretty much the same as Hull if not worse without the CC's
And to be honest the rest - Meh - year on year of false dawns etc.

But behind all of that is the Salary cap
People were talking about it being too low mid 00's - not really raised with inflation etc. and since say 07/08 onwards they've skirted around the issue by tinkering with Home grown plyer rule. exemptions for some things, Marquee rules etc. when the truth is it's like sticking your finger in the proverbial leaking damn!!!!
We lost more and more star players to RU & NRL
the clubs had to build Squads and couldn't afford superstars as that would have messed the balance of squads up
And putting a whole lot of other issues together in one statement "We started a Race to the bottom".
People have wanted to come into the game and invest money, we've pushed them away
Very successful clubs like Leeds who were sit on millions entered a relegation race due to injuries, existing contracts that stopped them buying new players when injuries kicked in etc. when other clubs worked on a balanced Shoestring and they navigated survival better.
We should be encouraging the Leeds of this world to be able to spend their money
Encouraging Moran to spend his money at Warrington
Encouraging Pearson at Hull, Leneghan at Wigan, Macmanus at Saints etc. etc. to look for more investment form other sources and invest in the game.
But here's the key

Why spend hundreds of thousands trying to bring more money into a game when you can't spend it where you want to?
Why invest in clubs that are on a race to the bottom?

Salary cap needs a massive overall, it needs to be raised significantly, investment from outside of the game needs to be attracted, Barla and youth set up reviewed

I could go on for hours - nobody wants that

But to suggest that fans do not understand this is ridiculous
they just don't want certain posters moaning on every thread over and over again basically just saying "Look at me - I know the answer - Everything is rubbish compared to the 80's/90s" without any substance or solutions attached.

So come on then.....what do you suggest? It's extremely easy to criticise and never offer solutions. I've listed above what I believe think needs to be done, you may have a different opinion on a solution. Or you may have none and just want to revel in how poor the game is now and we just all make as well pack up?

So I ask again... What is your resolve?

your wrong, I see more clubs, far far more clubs than when I played in the 80's and 90's, more players also, some clubs have to run 2 teams at age groups just to give them game time.

we could double the cap and have 50 percent paid from sky then upto the clubs to pay the rest, might make teams work to get investments instead of sitting back

SKY money saved the game 26 years ago we are no better position now as they are pulling the rug from beneath us.Live games in the pub why pay £25 when you can watch for free and have a free night out. Turn the clock back when MO got the deal and the controversial format he wanted would we be in a better position now after all the RFL want to make more radical changes now in this moment of time
Salary Cap not moved in all the years of SKY money not even moved with inflation as mentioned in previous posts why should rich backers come into the sport. Koukash with his hands tied behind his back by the RFL for example could have brought a lot more of his rich friends into the sport all he got from the RFL was a brick wall. Clubs not playing up to Salary cap limit.
With the salary cap we have lost players to the NRL and not been able to attract players from NRL only those at the end of their careers coming for a retirement Why should Moran,Caddick,Lenegan etc not be able to spend money on big stars Salary cap killed the game .
Tinkered about with the format of the SL too much--- license no promotion/relegation -14 teams then down to 12 playing these loop matches the attraction of playing Saints twice a year gone are the times we used to enjoy these matches now do not have the same importance any more
Too many rule changes .SKY interference to make the Grand Final more important than the Challenge cup.
Refereeing decisions even when going /not going to the screen even when going to the screen taking too long.
COVID not all people feel that they are safe when attending a match .
With covid finances limited if they have been furloughed and now the threat of austerity looming for public employees.
Salary cap again instead of improving the league teams are a lot more weaker its still the big teams winning the cups.
No one knows apart from ex players on BBC who the current players are stifled by the RFL as players cant put themselves in the shop window in adverts SC .
Fans got out of the habit of going to matches did summer rugby improve the attendances once again moved by SKY
SKY gave us a lifeline back then and now instead of improving the game it has gone terribly backwards.

I still feel Koucash would reinvest in a club, but it would have to take a big shift in RFL administration for him to do so. He certainly wouldn't with one hand tied behind his back, as you say who knows the other contacts he could bring with him to help strengthen the game.

The SC hasn’t gone up for god knows how long because we decided to drag clubs down to Cas, Wakey, Hull KR and Salford’s level rather than force those clubs up or show them the door. The Nigel Wood led RFL decided to lower standards rather than raise them and try to claim the opposite. Do we have more competitive games now? I’d say so yes but the other side to that coin is that the quality just isn’t there anymore.

The licensing system for me was spot on. It forced clubs to improve faculties - well in Cas and Wakey’s case they somehow continued (and continue to) blag it - and revenue, drive up their fan base but we bottled it. They’ll change the structure again in 2022 and it’ll be all signing all dancing, this is gonna happen, that’s gonna happen when in reality I will bet anyone £100 that by 2025 it’s either gone, or they’re looking at getting rid.

We don’t back anything when the going gets tough. Super 8s, War of the Roses, Exiles, England v France. All prime examples of things that, IMO, would have come good if we’d stuck to it and tweaked it as needed. The only thing we’ve done well is Magic Weekend because we did just that. Stuck with it and tweaked it, found out what worked, what didn’t and took on board both criticism and compliments.

We got rid of licensing 10years ago after a meek 3yrs, or one cycle. The game, I’d argue as regressed since then even further back than what it was then. We should have stuck with licensing and not give in to the clubs who didn’t want to improve themselves and/or were incapable of doing so. I’d have quite happily swapped out Wakefield for Leigh. Cas for Toulouse. KR for York. Salford for Newcastle if they were where they are now back then without any hesitation. Why? Because they have the capability and drive to improve and build. The new structure looks similar to what licensing was. I just hope they stick with it this time.

On another note; can we rid ourselves of the inept Ralph Rimmer and put Jon Dutton in his place ASAP?

Were they playing at half 7 on a Sunday?

Those kick off times are beyond ridiculous. There’s no reason why they can’t be 2/3pm Sunday afternoon.

where have the 15,000 or so that used to watch in 2010-2012 gone to

These quotes sum it up for me and are absolutely spot on the money.
In the early 2000's i rarely missed a game on sky and went to all wigan games....Im what you would call a RL obsessive, to the point that I struggle with other sports because they offer nothing in comparison to our game. But the sad fact is that the product has been in terminal decline in this country for many years. The salary cap has not helped and the standard of the game has diminished to the lowest common denominator. They got what they wanted (competitiveness), but basically most teams now play at a similar level to your salfords and huddersfields, rather than drive the game forward!

These days I watch all wigan games, but don't always go, and struggle to get motivated for anything but the bigger games. In terms of watching other SL on tele, I won't even bother unless its a combination of catalans, wire, saints, leeds, hull, possibly cas playing each other.....even then, i usually check the report at half time and if its looking like a good game i'll watch the second half.

Compare to SL circa early 2000s when i would sit down to every game to watch from the build up, or the NRL, where i can watch 4/5 games a weekend with no club affiliation and I am clamoring for more!

IMO there are THREE huge problems the game has;

i) Appeal of the game - Still played predominantly in relatively small northern towns, to small amounts of the population. Add the populations of all RL towns together and you're looking at approx 2.6m people (4% of the total population). Never was this more apparent to me than a family holiday two years ago when facing impossible problems to find a pub in Truro with Leeds v Wigan on TV. It occurred to me that to people in the SW, this is as interesting as us watching Truro vs Exeter!!! However good the game it has no appeal.

ii) Perceptions and Investment - Linked to the above, the impression the game has on sky, blue chip sponsors - that the game is a northern peculiarity and still carries old perceptions. The word 'league' has little but negative connotations....just listen to how some in the southern based media say the word 'league' is derisory. Outside of our game, league is mimicked by many, trotting out eddie wearing / northern stereotypes,coal mines, a deprived northern regional game which is a poor relation to the true code of rugby (union).
This means there is limited appetite for investors, despite being a better product, because of poor image and the demographics & reach of who the game appeals to. Added to this, the Super league brand has been a failure, and lost to womans footbal, netball and fantasy football leagues, just like the Rugby WC, due to our ineptitude and failure to trademark it!
This is why we get Bachelors peas / Heinz big soup and free Papa Johns pizzas etc as some of our main sponsorship partners.

iii) Standard and quality of product - Inexorably linked to the two above, because of the salary cap, lack of investment, reduced interest in our game, the standard at the top is so poor that you have RL diehards like us, saying we are bored with the UK game.....what chance do we have of bringing in new fans?!

.....So what options to we have, in an increasingly competitive and international sporting landscape, to save the game from becoming an irrelevance in the northern hemisphere in the next 5-10 years? Unless we do something drastic, realistically I can only see the game back as part time in the not too distant future.

My solutions to our biggest problems would be as follows;

1. We desperately need another re-branding and breakaway. The brands we have are tired, tarnished and either carry negative connotations or are confused with things like womens football! League similarly carries negative connotations. I would rebrand the whole game as Rugby XIIIs (said as 'Rugby Thirteens') just as in france. Perhaps even restructuring the top division as 13 teams to support this.

2. As part of rebranding, existing clubs would also re-brand as a condition of their licence application.

Most selected for the top division would remain in current towns / stadiums with the same core fan base and identity, but namings would be tweaked to appeal to wider geographical areas. ie/ Liverpool Saints / Hull East Yorkshire / Wigan Lancs etc. Each team would play 1-2 home games away from their home base each year within their region. For example, Saints playing occasional games in Liverpool, but all but 1 or 2 still in St Helens.

This helps the game in two ways;
i) all teams grow and appeal to a greater amount of individuals, so ultimately attendances and following goes up
ii) but critically it also addresses all of the perception problems we see securing investment in the game....that we are a game played in small northern towns where only approx 4% of the population live.

So almost solves i) and ii) in one go!!

If existing SL teams did this alone, you could increase your catchment areas to cover upwards of 10 million people opposed to 2 million.
If you also introduce new and re-promoted clubs ie/ London SW Broncos and Newcastle or Tyne Thunder you increase that to somewhere in the region of 20-25 million people within the catchment area of a SL club...getting close to half of the population.
If you're an advertiser thats a hell of a lot more attractive.

Yes, it may leave the wakefields behind but they could reform in a vibrant British championship they would have a realistic chance of winning (which they will never have currently), playing against other teams at their level and with similar resources and fan base. They are much better playing at their level than holding those at the top back.

My reformed Super 13s would be;
Leeds Rhinos
Liverpool Saints
Manchester Fords (Salford rebrand on the same premise as Saints, with Fords being a throw to Salford) If Salford are too parochial and not brave enough then a new Manchester club.
Cheshire Wire (Warrington rebrand- same premise)
Lancashire Warriors or possibly Wigan Lancs (due to the strength of the Wigan brand)
Hull East Yorkshire
London SW Broncos
Tyne Thunder
Wales / Celtic Crusaders Back at Wrexham, where they were successful and actually starting to get crowds.
Catalan Dragons
Toulouse Olympique who will probably be in next year anyway
....plus one or two others selected on basis of applications....possibly Toronto or a new club.

Ask Sky and advertisers what they would pay for that.....Probably 2-3 times as much!!

Most of those clubs are already in place and ready to go, but with some smart re-brands you are appealing to huge areas of the country, rather than a few hundred thousands in deprived northern towns.

We then have a proper super league to drive the game forward....IMO the game could be twice as it is currently in 2-5 years.

Yes it takes a huge mindshift, yes you need to be brave, but do that and the game can survive.....carry on and we're dead in the water in 10 years, back to semi pro and amateur.
For me the writing is already on the wall, when our own fan base seems to have dropped to below 10k. Realistically that isn't sustainable and clubs like Wigan should be leading this breakaway with ambitious clubs who want to drive the game forward.

I think Sky are a big part f the problem of the nothern stereotype, as long as you have O'Connor and Mac as co-commentators(?) with their overly nothern accents and mannerisms it will always portray the game as nothern. Add in the average to poor commentry and the constant shuffling of times/days shown how can anyone other than a die ahrd fan get on board.

Sadly the whole idea of re-branding will not happen - too mamy clubs will maintain the status quo until they go out of business.

The Super League franchises at the start in '96 with the insistence on grounds/accedemy etc was the way forward but was fairly rapidly diluted and diluted until we have the current situation - we don't even have a decent resrves setup at most clubs now.

The game needs visionaries prepared to shake thinsg up but they are totally absent in the game and with the current world situation I think it is unlikely any will emerge. Just surviving seems to be enough for a lot of clubs now and in recent years with no more ambition than that.