FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Re: What will the RFL do if the DR. Breaks the Salary Cap? |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 5214 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2006 | 18 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Sep 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: EHW "Much of it will come down to the ability to prove anything.
If 'Marwan Koukash Dubai Ltd' (for example) legally pays Sonny Bill Williams £3 million for "racehorse management fees" - how can the RFL prove it? and if they can do that, how can they prove what the salary cap value is?
Can 'Marwan Koukash Dubai Ltd' be legally compelled by the RFL to open their books and reveal what all their staff are being paid? Can Sonny Bill Williams be legally compelled by the RFL to open all his bank accounts to them?'"
Sbw to anyone else has to be registered with the Red Devils before allowed to take the pitch, due to insurance reasons of the players. As soon as he is registered with Red Devils all payments to the player is seen by the rfl. Shell company's, dummy corporations and all the rest of it don't work. Apparently Leeds tried to sign all their players to Leeds tykes on dual code contracts and then paying half from each, but only counting the half from Leeds rhinos on the cap. They were forced to stop very quickly (again apparently) as the rfl saw all player payments as opposed to just what Leeds were paying.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 8150 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Should the good Dr re-negotiate contracts with his suppliers, animal feed, vets services, livery, etc then those companies could "Sponsor" SBW or any other player.
A company owned by Dr Koukash cannot sponsor a player.
That's as I understand it.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 32358 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2002 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: Father Ted "Should the good Dr re-negotiate contracts with his suppliers, animal feed, vets services, livery, etc then those companies could "Sponsor" SBW or any other player.
A company owned by Dr Koukash cannot sponsor a player.
That's as I understand it.'"
It's still wide open to abuse.
Suppose I owned a company and as a Wigan supporter decided to give a couple of players cars with the company name on them. Then suppose IL decided to give me some work (not related to my sponsorship of course!!) at one of his companies. Unless I advertise in the programme or sponsor Wigan then as far as I'm aware nothing can be done. What if I own a few houses and let them out to players?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1704 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2023 | Dec 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| what if the player buys a horse for 50K and then charges The Docs stable 50k a time to service 10 mares in a year .... 500k........It has nothing to do with Rugby league so doesn't count against his salary as earnings derived from the game.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: Magic Superbeetle "Sbw to anyone else has to be registered with the Red Devils before allowed to take the pitch, due to insurance reasons of the players. As soon as he is registered with Red Devils all payments to the player is seen by the rfl. Shell company's, dummy corporations and all the rest of it don't work. Apparently Leeds tried to sign all their players to Leeds tykes on dual code contracts and then paying half from each, but only counting the half from Leeds rhinos on the cap. They were forced to stop very quickly (again apparently) as the rfl saw all player payments as opposed to just what Leeds were paying.'"
That wasn’t all the players, it was a few who Leeds wanted to play for both codes (mostly imports)with half counting towards the Salary Cap (or a designated portion for each) but were told that all would apply under the RL Salary Cap. I think the most obvious example of this would be Wendell Sailor who played 15 times for the Tykes and in two friendlies for the Rhinos who wanted to sign him for both clubs but his cap hit in RL would have been huge, so he went back to Brisbane. They were never actually allowed to do it.
Your shell companies etc are covered by the RFL’s regs and all payments are covered. However I can imagine the answer to the RFL demanding to see the books of Marwan Koucash Dubai (ltd) or the books of SBW (BVI) ltd being a fairly impolite no.
That payment doesnt go from Marwan Koucash or Salford Red Devils to Sonny Bill Williams. It goes from one private company that doesnt own an RL club, to another private company that the player may not declare ownership of.
The RFL could never prove, could never hope to prove, could never even really hope to know if offshore company A paid offshore company B any money. They wouldn’t really even need to be offshore. The RFL can see the books of the club, and probably the information of the player. They can’t hope to see the books of another company the owner of the club has, or hope to see the books of the company the player has.
Can you imagine the RFL asking Caddick construction for their payroll? Or to see their list of suppliers and their transactions with them?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1008 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "....The RFL could never prove, could never hope to prove, could never even really hope to know if offshore company A paid offshore company B any money..... '"
This would then be heading into money laundering territory & tax fraud - all very murky & difficult to track down (& the RFL would never have a cat in hell's chance of working it out unless they suspected something was going on in the first place or a whistle-blower popped up).
Either way, bordering on illegal in so many areas.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: CyberPieMan "This would then be heading into money laundering territory & tax fraud - all very murky & difficult to track down (& the RFL would never have a cat in hell's chance of working it out unless they suspected something was going on in the first place or a whistle-blower popped up).
Either way, bordering on illegal in so many areas.'"
It would be neither. It wouldn’t be close.
Company A can pay Company B whatever they want for whatever they want. If Company B for whatever reason decides later on to pay player A for ‘consultancy’ then that is fine and legal. If player A doesn’t declare his income at that point to the relevant authorities he would possibly have a problem. But offshore Company B is under no obligation to declare to the UK tax authorities it got a payment from Offshore Company A.
As long as Company A and Company B paid the relevant tax in their relevant jurisdictions, and player A declared his income to the correct tax Authorities when he got ‘paid’ by company B there would be no possibility of tax fraud, it isn’t money laundering in any way so that wouldn’t really be an issue.
There is actually nothing being held back from the tax authorities and no reason for the parties to hide what is going on from them. They arent actually avoiding any tax, it is being paid as it should in the jurisdictions it should
There is nothing in the Salary Cap rules which state that a player can’t earn money from third party companies just that those companies can’t be connected to the club. In this example company B has no connection to the club, it is simply a supplier to company A is connected to the club.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 5214 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2006 | 18 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Sep 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "That wasn’t all the players, it was a few who Leeds wanted to play for both codes (mostly imports)with half counting towards the Salary Cap (or a designated portion for each) but were told that all would apply under the RL Salary Cap. I think the most obvious example of this would be Wendell Sailor who played 15 times for the Tykes and in two friendlies for the Rhinos who wanted to sign him for both clubs but his cap hit in RL would have been huge, so he went back to Brisbane. They were never actually allowed to do it.
Your shell companies etc are covered by the RFL’s regs and all payments are covered. However I can imagine the answer to the RFL demanding to see the books of Marwan Koucash Dubai (ltd) or the books of SBW (BVI) ltd being a fairly impolite no.
That payment doesnt go from Marwan Koucash or Salford Red Devils to Sonny Bill Williams. It goes from one private company that doesnt own an RL club, to another private company that the player may not declare ownership of.
The RFL could never prove, could never hope to prove, could never even really hope to know if offshore company A paid offshore company B any money. They wouldn’t really even need to be offshore. The RFL can see the books of the club, and probably the information of the player. They can’t hope to see the books of another company the owner of the club has, or hope to see the books of the company the player has.
Can you imagine the RFL asking Caddick construction for their payroll? Or to see their list of suppliers and their transactions with them?'"
For the rfl to clear him to play he has to be registered either as an employee or a director as a company in the uk. That is because they then have to register in the uk for tax purposes. If they tried paying from Dubai to New Zealand then Salford could sign him for whatever they like, but he won't be registered to play. Once sbw ltd is registered in the uk the rfl can use tax returns to calculate income, and therefore use a "estimated income" to count on the cap. This can be seen by anyone on company's house. It's in the same way teams can't hire wives as very expensive cleaners
There are of course ways around the salary cap, but require offshore banking after initial payments and or financial instruments and you encounter bigger difficulties than the rfl then.
To suggest teams should go and find ways to deliberately go around circumvent the salary cap in such a manner is only going to create more problems
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15798 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Nothing to stop one of the dr's offshore companies from paying money to SBW's mum and dad.....
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 72 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2023 | Jul 2015 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I seem to remember the RFL making an example of Barrow Raiders chairman, Des Johnston, a couple of years ago for breaching salary cap rules and making payments "off the books" to players. rlJohnston was banned from any involvment with the running of a Rugby League club for 8 yearsrl. Surely if Koukash does the same, he'll be penalised in the same manner? Maybe he wont since he has money and Superleague is a different kettle of fish from Championship RL.
Its one thing for the RFL to censure somebody like Johnston and another thing entirely do take on an intelligent individual with more money than them. However, they do have a penchant for making bad decisions so I wont hold my breath should it come to this.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: Magic Superbeetle "For the rfl to clear him to play he has to be registered either as an employee or a director as a company in the uk. That is because they then have to register in the uk for tax purposes. If they tried paying from Dubai to New Zealand then Salford could sign him for whatever they like, but he won't be registered to play. Once sbw ltd is registered in the uk the rfl can use tax returns to calculate income, and therefore use a "estimated income" to count on the cap. This can be seen by anyone on company's house. It's in the same way teams can't hire wives as very expensive cleaners
There are of course ways around the salary cap, but require offshore banking after initial payments and or financial instruments and you encounter bigger difficulties than the rfl then.
To suggest teams should go and find ways to deliberately go around circumvent the salary cap in such a manner is only going to create more problems'"
Koucash isnt paying him, He is paying a company he is an employee of, who in turn can pay him whenever they want (remembering ‘they’ is likely to be him)
He can be registered with a normal playing contract, and a decent wage. Koucash can then pay whatever he wants to Company B for ‘services’. Company B can then pay SBW whatever they want. SBW could wait until he had left the UK, and then have company B pay him his ‘Wage’ and he would never have to declare it to the UK authorities.
Many footballers already do it. Wayne Rooney does it, Michael Owen does it through a company called Owen Promotions, Theo Walcott does it through a company called TJW promotions.
There is no tax fraud, no need to not declare everything to the tax man, the correct tax can be paid, it isnt an attempt and there is no need to attempt to avoid tax.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 3368 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2015 | Jan 2015 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: SmokeyTA "Koucash isnt paying him, He is paying a company he is an employee of, who in turn can pay him whenever they want (remembering ‘they’ is likely to be him)
He can be registered with a normal playing contract, and a decent wage. Koucash can then pay whatever he wants to Company B for ‘services’. Company B can then pay SBW whatever they want. SBW could wait until he had left the UK, and then have company B pay him his ‘Wage’ and he would never have to declare it to the UK authorities.
Many footballers already do it. Wayne Rooney does it, Michael Owen does it through a company called Owen Promotions, Theo Walcott does it through a company called TJW promotions.
There is no tax fraud, no need to not declare everything to the tax man, the correct tax can be paid, it isnt an attempt and there is no need to attempt to avoid tax.'"
The RFL would want to know what you declared for tax. Also anybody who is caught doing it like that has an 8 year ban as precedent has been set. Also from my previous comment its a lot harder to hide money from the tax man than people believe and its hard to keep a company books straight with yearly salaries being paid of the books.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: dubairl "The RFL would want to know what you declared for tax. Also anybody who is caught doing it like that has an 8 year ban as precedent has been set. Also from my previous comment its a lot harder to hide money from the tax man than people believe and its hard to keep a company books straight with yearly salaries being paid of the books.'"
Its not very complicated, is well established and already used by many sportsmen
You register a normal playing contract at a normal wage. This goes from club to player. So Koucash as Salford Red Devils pays SBW £200k a season to play for Salford
Company A based in Dubai pays Company B based in BVI a lump sum of £1m for consultancy services. This money sits in company Bs bank account. The UK tax authorities have no reason, no need and no jurisdiction to query this payment, it has absolutely nothing to do with them. It has even less to do with the RFL. Company A is a shell company owned by Koucash, and company B is a shell company owned by SBW, with his solicitor as trustee. All correct tax on this transaction has been paid in Dubai and BVI. This perfectly legal and above board.
Then, three years later SBW’s contract with Salford ends and he goes home to New Zealand. Whilst there Company B pays SBW a wage of £1m for Sports consultancy services. All correct tax is declared and paid in BVI and New Zealand. This is perfectly legal and above board. The UK tax authorities have no reason, no need, and no jurisdiction to query a payment from the BVI to NZ. The RFL have even less of one
There is no need for two sets of books, no need for hiding anything from the tax man, the RFL can know everything SBW earns and declares to the tax man. For three years he was under the RFL jurisdiction it would be £200k a year.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 194 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2016 | Jun 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Well we don't need to worry about Bill Williams signing for Salford he's just agreed to go back to rugby Union for the 2015 season in a 2 year with Waikato Chiefs.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote: Bostonslugholes "Well we don't need to worry about Bill Williams signing for Salford he's just agreed to go back to rugby Union for the 2015 season in a 2 year with Waikato Chiefs.'"
and it is a crying shame that british rugby league is not a realistic option for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|