I's say Jake is more right than wrong. I like Gelling and Gildart, but I wouldn't deny that Shenton and Webster are probably the best pairing in the comp. And also that Hull wingers have been very good. But Wigan's problems aren't with their outside backs, as many have said. We are plenty good enough to be competitive there if the rest of the team was firing. We *have* overachieved in the last couple of seasons. And without drastic changes, which I think are unlikely, that won't alter anytime soon.

If Manfredi comes back the same player (and it's a big IF) then he is automatically the best winger in the league. Tom Davies is already in the top 3 wingers in the league for me. Just look at his stats, Tries, clean breaks, metres, tackle busts etc, it's phenomenal. Another season for him like this one and the NRL will be sniffing. Burgess is badly out of shape and fitness. Marshall had a couple of good attacking games against a poor Warrington side and that has masked the rest of his games. Shocking under the high ball and totally inept in defence and i can't see that changing, he isn't the answer im afraid. I would swap Gelling for quite a few centres in the league, Bill Topou being the main one. I like Gellings off the cuff style when we are in front or needing to be expansive but he does it too often for my liking and leaves me cringing when i see him within 20 metres of the opposition line when you just want him to take it in.

The criticisms of Hasler are very similar to those of Maguire at the Rabbits (excluding the culture stuff) - hanging on to an outmoded and dull style of play was OK whilst the side was competitive, but not once it stopped at least getting wins.

I'd say Wane and McDermott look a lot like Hasler and Maguire in that the signs are suggesting that they've hung on too long. Tony Smith did too (I'm pretty sure when he left Leeds he said that a coach shouldn't stay at a club for more than 4/5 years). The main difference between Smith and the others to me is that he has a record of achievement at more than one club. I'm really not convinced either Wane or McDermott would be particularly successful outside of the clubs they're at.

So your saying he would have taken

Winning a glorified friendly (Charity Shield game)
Lose at Wembley
Fail to even get to the semi final games

And you as a fan would have taken that

Because in a nutshell that what Wigan standards have just become under Wane. And the buck does stop with him by prioritising getting to Wembley over the GF. We played a vastly understrength side at Leigh though I agree we had injuries.

But the week after at Warrington in the CC game most returned just in time. Or was it more like held back. Because that 2 point if those players who came back the week after were available has cost us a lot more than just pride.

What the answer is I'm not sure. Would keeping Wane and bringing in an attacking coach with a good record help. Waney is a good motivator although he's had a hang dog look about him almost all this season.
Perhaps Wane plus say Geoff Toovey as asst? Toovey would sort out our half backs and backs. The style would certainly improve.

Replacing Wane will be difficult although there would be plenty applicants if his job became vacant. How many of those applicants would be good enough or suitable is another matter. It took IL over a year to find and agree Mcguire so will it take the same next time?

One thing is for sure and that is we are all fed up with the style of rugby played and matter have to improve. Changes have to be made to get those improvements and if they are not made then the outlook for crowds next season is not good at all.
My preference is for Wane plus an attacking/backs asst coach, like Toovey. Don't know if he'd be suitable but if he was I'd have him here and asap!

I wouldn't swap Gelling either! Not unless it was for a top class international, proven centre.

What’s that saying about backside holes & opinions?

IMO his brain farts with the ball, shocking defence more often than not and his lack of fitness beyond 60 mins so often, far outweigh his occasional (again my opinion) good bits.
My problem often with him is he’s been at the club how long (6,7,8 years?) and still we’re looking at someone with potential who’s terribly inconsistent.

He rides his bmx though so most love him.

I thought you were trying to be serious until I read this bit! How does an unfit player carry the ball for an average 120 metres a game? He's a centre as well so that isn't kick returns bumping up the figures, that's hard graft every week. Absolute nonsense

I'm with you on this Ted.
As a person SW is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and as a coach he appears to have pretty incredible motivational skills which ideally we would want to keep within the club.

I have been bored rigid for 3 seasons and there is absolutely no way I will be buying a season ticket next season unless there are some pretty radical changes. I know very little if anything about Toovey other than his name seems to pop up with regularity when new potential coaches roles are available or rumoured to be available.
I am a lifelong fan who when we lost even after 50 years of following them it still used to ruin my weekend but these days I just shrug my shoulders but deep down it really hurts that we have let standards drop on and off the field to such low and for me personally, demoralising standards.

Financially this season I'm assuming will be much better the loss recently posted however, next season will be horrendous unless IL comes up with something different because season ticket sales will fall off a cliff.

I don't expect to win every game and every trophy available but I do expect to see full time professionals with some the highest paid players in the competition to be competitive in every game and show more resourcefulness than we have seen for the past few years. We play with for me zero intensity with a permanent scowl with players who seem to think they are beyond criticism (ST last year with Bilko was beyond the pale) and the club seem oblivious to falling crowds issuing laughable statistics on attendances which I assume is for contentment internally within the club.

GF holders and Latics in Division 2 or whatever they call it should be the perfect model for potential significant growth in attendances, generating more cash and more importantly attracting new and ideally younger spectators on a weekly basis.
This has just passed us by and IL thinks that a game in Australia will fill in the cracks?? That will no doubt be a great boozing trip for spectators and maybe some advertising income but if we play as we have done for the last 3 years it will add zero to our credibility to be a leading team on the park.

I know we cant go and sign 6 or 7 players I'm not that stupid but we need change and we need the club to acknowledge that currently the levels of performance on and off the field are not acceptable. Two or three new players with a change in style will do for me next season even if that means zero finals and we don't make the playoff semi finals as long as I see positive change with good potential for year on year improvement I will be satisfied.

Do I hope Hull lose tonight? Of course I do. Would I then want us to then beat Wakefield? Of course I would. Would that change how I feel and how I think? Absolutely not.

I'm not anti IL or SW I just want to get back to enjoying my club, my sport and stop kicking the cat. I want to go to a home game in anticipation. I want to go back to shouting and screaming during the game - the past 3 seasons I just sit there in silence. I want to burn the wrestling pit. I want to talk rugby during the week while I'm waiting for the next match to come around. I want to stop knocking my club for being boring, insular and petulant.
I know some people wont believe me but I genuinely don't enjoy knocking the club but I still feel so passionate about the club that I feel I must say something even if the club are not interested or listening.

I hope IL will hold one of his forums with the fans in the next couple of months to hopefully, give us some glimpse of potential changes and acknowledge the unrest amongst the fans.

Good post Itchy. Personally, I feel that this unprecedented level of unrest amongst the fan base has been caused by the fact that our level of performance hasn't met the expectations of some when we returned to virtual full fitness. People were, rightly, understanding and patient through the injury crisis and then, IMO, expected to see some champagne rugby when our troops returned. Actually, the run of results up to the Cas game has been OK but it hasn't been good to watch. That woeful performance against Cas would appear to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

It would be just our luck that Cas hand us a lifeline tonight by beating Hull and we mess it up by getting beat by Wakey tomorrow.

Unlike many supporters I have been increasingly unhappy for 3 seasons so level of injuries earlier in the although unfortunate hasn't really swung my views that much because even with a full team I just don't think we are good enough. Our style of play hasn't progressed and we have been overtaken by quite a few teams in what comparatively is generally a lower standard than a few years ago with Cas the exception to the rule.

I actually don't think that even with a full squad we can actually play "champagne" rugby. Any semblance of individuality has been strangled. The chances of players playing what they see is zero until we 20 points down with 10 minutes to go. We never adopt changes to style or structure irrespective of who the opposition is - just how hard do we try to do something different or negate opposition strengths?

In a sport where the kicking game out of hand and from the tee has become increasingly important we think a kicking competition when the season has already started and sticking with a guy who the whole world knows cant kick (TL) is sufficient and shows what great "attitude" we have. You couldn't make something like that up.

I hope this season could be a watershed for IL. I'm not so sure about one or two sullen players or if SW can adapt to changes not generated by himself.

As I've previously stated though, since our big guns returned we have won 73% of our games. The only team with a better win ratio is Cas. So it would seem (and I agree) that its not the results people are unhappy with, but the brand of rugby we play.

Well said Itchy. I know some of you guys have been watching Wigan man (or woman) and and boy for a lifetime, and I only hope IL and the club take fans' concerns seriously. I really hope that don't kid themselves that it's just a a few "squeaky wheels" complaining, cos in my experience it's everyone I talk to in the town.

On a personal level I was excited to be in a position to be a ST holder and watch rugby regularly every week. And, going back to the start of the season, with ST returning, there was plenty of optimism around.

As it turned out, I could hardly have chosen a worse season!