I made it clear in my post that Wigan had their chances and didn't take them hence no complaints from me and certainly not ungracious in defeat. My point was about Saints poor attacking options which had nothing to with not having recognised halfbacks. If they had moved the ball wide when they had clear overlaps then they would have won comfortably.

Are you implying that on the two occasions that Flanagan ignored two and three men overlaps out wide and came back inside, thereby blowing an easy 8 points, he did so because of the 'gameplan' and not because he's a back rower being asked to play at halfback ?

Is that what you're really trying to imply ? Had Saints had Walsh and Hohaia at 6 and 7 after Flower walked, they'd have ran up 40 points. The idea that having Flanagan, Wellens and Turner in the pivot positions didn't significantly impact St Helens is laughable.

But that's the point of halfbacks isn't it? When a team has its halfbacks they know when to go wide and they line up the players to ensure the ball goes wide. We had a halfback pairing of a second rower and a fullback who was supposed to play fullback but had to change thanks to our one remaining halfback leaving the field. We then had to put a winger at fullback, a centre on the wing and a prop in the centres. All the time we were playing with a centre at loose forward. Let's see how many matches Wigan win with that combination, especially when it's foisted on them two minutes into a grand final, and then come back and tell me that Wigan should have gone wide when they had overlaps.

Jeez. Halfbacks are trained to create the overlaps. Second rowers don't even know to look.

Wigan looked so good precisely because they had halfbacks on the pitch doing the job that halfbacks do. We had nobody to do that at all.

Saints started the season with one playmaker half back then lost him through injury. From the outset it was "Saints will be ok as long as Walsh stays fit".
Saints had no youth cover for Lomax, non for Walsh and non for Wilkin. If Saints had no cover then that's their fault no one else's. Stop complaining about it.
Wigan have cover,
Wire have cover,
Leeds have cover,
Hudds have cover,
Only starting the season with one playmaker half back was Saints decision so don't use it as some kind of reason or excuse.

So the only top side without cover are now Champions? Having cover is so overrated.

Ps. Champions don't need excuses.

I agree. As I said in my previous post, that was an opportunity for Wigan to score but Bowen took the wrong option and blew it. The difference is I am not using a lack of creative half backs as an excuse.

Yes creative halfbacks can create an overlap but when you already have an overlap without a halfback then the second rowers, centres and wingers are meant to finish it! So it is either poor play or a bad game plan! Take your pick.

Jeez, I could have put the winger in!

It was poor play, I don't think anyone is disputing that. The point that you seem to be missing is that the people who carried out this "poor play" were not in there natural positions and therefore it's understandable.

The point that you won't accept is that the overlaps had been created without recognised halfbacks and the other players should be well capable of passing to exploit the overlap. What you are saying is that they are not capable in which I would be concerned. Saying they are not in their natural positions is papering over the cracks.

Don't be silly, you're showing a bit of naivety here. It's not just a simple case of "can he pass?" It's more to do with spotting the gaps in the defence and making the right pass selection. That's the kind of thing that won't come natural to props and 2nd rowers.

With regards to these "cracks," I'm sure once Lomax, Burns, Walsh and Wilkin are playing in our title-winning side we won't struggle creatively.

I agree a little bit with what 'nohalfbacks' is saying. Our game plan was completions in that second half, so why would we force a pass if we didn't feel like we could execute it? This goes then into what everyone else is saying. They couldn't execute because they are not HBs.

Everyone who plays rugby can pass the ball: it's how well they can do it and whether they can acheive that at the right moment. I didn't want Flanagan to pass the ball only to lead to an error just so we can say that we looked a bit flash. We wanted to win the game and ultimately we did without throwing passes that probably wouldn't have been executed correctly.

We were comfortable through the middle so that is where we played. Wigan made breaks and looked flash because they HAD to throw the ball out and make the meters out wide because of the struggle in the middle. That is generally where they make their meters anyway and that is why they are such a dangerous team. Sarginson, Gelling and Farrell are all dangerous in space. But our defence (and cover defence especially) was very good.

The point about cover is a valid point and something that every saints fan is aware of. We will have cover next season.

Thats right natural half backs are much quicker thinkers and can see the options much better combined with correct timing, you get a couple of back row forwards who can do it also like O'Loughlin, Wilkin ,Ferres, Sinfield for instance but we were missing Wilkin.
When Wellens started mid season in the halves he concentrated on the "middle" to cut down the errors, when Flanagan started in the halves he also had to concentrated on the "middle" to cut down the errors.
We also lost our kicking game with Walsh, Wilkin and Hohaia missing so if was left to Turner to provide a kicking game at the expense of a passing one.

Browny just had to "cut his cloth" to what was available and again concentrated on the middle in both attack and defence it was a strategy worth while because our pack "was on the button" and on the advantage.

Hang on a minute. First you admit it was poor play and now you are claiming it was strategy. Make your minds up. On the occasions that Saints had clear overlaps it didn't need a risky or forced pass, just a pass and it didn't something clever from a creative halfback.

You are having a laugh if you think there are only a couple of second row forwards who pass.

I maintain my argument that it was either poor play (which plenty of Saints fans agree with) or poor strategy in which case you are well shut of Brown. For sure Saints will be better the creative players are back but I am commenting on the performance without them. If it was poor play then those players will still be incapable of taking a simple passing option when Walsh or Lomax creates one.