FORUMS > Wigan Warriors > Just to prove what we already know - we're getting worse |
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| Quote: DaveO "Give over. They have had more than enough time.
The entire recruitment looks haphazard. We have signed Phelps, Pryce, Roberts and Gleeson when we needed a prop. It is not as if Gleeson was the only back we signed when we needed a prop. There was obviously enough cash around to sign one given we signed the first three never mind Gleeson.
It is a mistake (to put it mildly) to have gone down this route and I do not accept it is all IL's doing. Noble must carry the can and therefore the fact we are light in the front row but try and play as if we are not is down to him.
But recruitment aside Noble needs to go because he has been exposed as a poor coach.
Dave'" For me, you are wrong. If only it was that simple to put team matters right...
For a start, to belive Nobby is 100% responsible for recruitment is laughable and he is not a poor coach.
Just my view of course.
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| Quote: Red Hot Jalapeno "You can continue to keep thinking deeply about it all but the fact is we did not replace Barrett leaving us with no real halfback in the entire squad and the props are terrible. No matter which way you dress it up that is 2 of the most important areas on the field that we are awful in. You simply cannot play the game being so poor in those areas and expect great things to happen no matter who the coach is.
'"
You don't have to think deeply about it to recognise that we don't unload in the tackle often enough, don't play the ball quickly enough, hang back in defence, kick away possession too often and too early, don't use our dummy rummers properly, are too shallow in attack, substitute at the wrong time, don't bring our runners through from depth, go to sleep when we get ahead, drop endless numbes of passes, are apparently unfit, poorly conditioned, not motivated, etc.
None of these things are complicated. Junior sides have mastered them. Yet we almost invariably get them wrong.
We used to be the inventors of sophisticated game plans and tactics. Now we can't even do the basics right. I've avoided being so forthright about it in the past, but the time's come to speak the embarrassing truth because the future of Wigan as an RL force is more important than one man's diminishing reputation. The head-coach is not adquate for this level of football.
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| The Catalan fixture was a nghtmare.
Four days after playing Saints we have to go there and face that lot.
Noble knew we couldn't beat them down the middle so we went round the outside. We had the beating of them in the backs and it showed.
Walters knew they could beat us down the middle and easily. He also had to watch the outside as knows what Roberts and Gleeson are capable of between them.
Wigan went round the outside and were 4-14 up after 20 mins. The interchage killed us with Bailey also going off. They scored every try up the middle where we were weakest and their big men blew us away!
Last 10 mins, admitted when the game was over, we score two again one up the middle by Sam T and on the outside by Pat.
We need a prop immediately, whether there's one available is another matter entirely. We will need another when Coley goes next year.
We need a play maker halfback and a bulky 2nd row/prop wouldn't do any harm.
Thank God Jamal Fakir didn't play, he's the type of player Wigan need. Can play prop/2nd row, huge man and an enforcer.
We've now all the backs we need and the urgent priority has to be a prop.
I know everyone who went there was as disappointed as I was. Looking at the league, honestly say, who would have beaten Catalan in the South of France only four days after a club's main derby of the year.
I'm not sure who could have won that fixture.
We didn't come close but who would have?
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| Quote: Father Ted "The Catalan fixture was a nghtmare.
Four days after playing Saints we have to go there and face that lot.
Noble knew we couldn't beat them down the middle so we went round the outside. We had the beating of them in the backs and it showed.
Walters knew they could beat us down the middle and easily. He also had to watch the outside as knows what Roberts and Gleeson are capable of between them.
Wigan went round the outside and were 4-14 up after 20 mins. The interchage killed us with Bailey also going off. They scored every try up the middle where we were weakest and their big men blew us away!
Last 10 mins, admitted when the game was over, we score two again one up the middle by Sam T and on the outside by Pat.
We need a prop immediately, whether there's one available is another matter entirely. We will need another when Coley goes next year.
We need a play maker halfback and a bulky 2nd row/prop wouldn't do any harm.
Thank God Jamal Fakir didn't play, he's the type of player Wigan need. Can play prop/2nd row, huge man and an enforcer.
We've now all the backs we need and the urgent priority has to be a prop.
I know everyone who went there was as disappointed as I was. Looking at the league, honestly say, who would have beaten Catalan in the South of France only four days after a club's main derby of the year.
I'm not sure who could have won that fixture.
We didn't come close but who would have?'"
Very true,people have forgot that it was a massive task for any team to win that game especially given we lost Carmont and Hock but had we managed to win most of the earlier season games nobody would be that bothered. The problem is we have not managed to win most of our other games and the Catalans game just highlighted the weakness in our squad.
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| Quote: Father Ted "The Catalan fixture was a nghtmare.
Four days after playing Saints we have to go there and face that lot.
Noble knew we couldn't beat them down the middle so we went round the outside. We had the beating of them in the backs and it showed.
Walters knew they could beat us down the middle and easily. He also had to watch the outside as knows what Roberts and Gleeson are capable of between them.
Wigan went round the outside and were 4-14 up after 20 mins. The interchage killed us with Bailey also going off. They scored every try up the middle where we were weakest and their big men blew us away!
Last 10 mins, admitted when the game was over, we score two again one up the middle by Sam T and on the outside by Pat.
We need a prop immediately, whether there's one available is another matter entirely. [sizeWe will need another when Coley goes next year.[/size
We need a play maker halfback and a bulky 2nd row/prop wouldn't do any harm.
Thank God Jamal Fakir didn't play, he's the type of player Wigan need. Can play prop/2nd row, huge man and an enforcer.
We've now all the backs we need and the urgent priority has to be a prop.
I know everyone who went there was as disappointed as I was. Looking at the league, honestly say, who would have beaten Catalan in the South of France only four days after a club's main derby of the year.
I'm not sure who could have won that fixture.
We didn't come close but who would have?'"
Does that mean Fielden is staying
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| Quote: flyingkelvin "For me, you are wrong. If only it was that simple to put team matters right...
For a start, to belive Nobby is 100% responsible for recruitment is laughable and he is not a poor coach.
Just my view of course.'"
It is clear we need a prop but I also don't think that alone would fix it and have never suggested it would. That would require the coach to coach the team better. We could recruit who we liked but until we play differently there will be no improvement. That is why Noble is a poor coach and for the detail as to why see Crunchers post.
Dave
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| Quote: DaveO "He has been long enough at Wigan for his performance here to influence whether he is considered a good coach or not. His performance as coach at Wigan is pretty dire and would IMO have been even worse were it not for Barrett for two seasons.
Harking back to his Bradford days and saying that proves he is a good coach fly's in the face of the evidence that has been on show weekly since 2007.
You make it sound as if he was/is hamstrung to do anything about the current level of performance we are getting from the team. I can't seriously believe you think he can have so little influence on the group of players we have, several of which are current internationals.
Dave'"
Interestingly, since the start of 1999 you've had the following coaches:
John Monie (sacked July 99)
Andy Goodway (sacked Dec. 99)
Frank Endacott (sacked May 01)
Stuart Raper (sacked July 03)
Mike Gregory (left due to illness 04)
Denis Betts (sacked 05)
Ian Millward (sacked 06)
Brian Noble
The only silverware you won in that time was the Challenge Cup in 2002 under Stuart Raper (although you won the league in 98 with Monie (I think) at the helm).
Monie was a good coach with a good track record, Endacott was an international coach, Millward had great success with both Leigh and St. Helens and Nobby had great success at Bradford. Obviously, I'm an outsider looking in, but it would suggest that there's something other than the head coach that's an influence here. It may be similar to what happened at Leeds where they seemed to spend lots of money on all sorts but never quite won anything until around 1999. And no-one seemed to be able to sort it all out.
I'd suggest that there's much more to this than meets the eye....
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| Quote: Cruncher "You don't have to think deeply about it to recognise that we don't unload in the tackle often enough, don't play the ball quickly enough, hang back in defence, kick away possession too often and too early, don't use our dummy rummers properly, are too shallow in attack, substitute at the wrong time, don't bring our runners through from depth, go to sleep when we get ahead, drop endless numbes of passes, are apparently unfit, poorly conditioned, not motivated, etc.
None of these things are complicated. Junior sides have mastered them. Yet we almost invariably get them wrong.
'"
Nail on the head for me. My problem with Noble is watching the same schoolboy errors (listed above) which have been the one constant through his tenure at Wigan. These errors have nothing to do with poor recruitment.
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| The reason I mentioned Coley is that he's OOC end of this season.
I didn't mention Fielden as he's OOC end of 2010.
I've no knowledge of him leaving this year and deduced that he'd see out his contract therefore be with us for the 2010 season.
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| Quote: DaveO "It is clear we need a prop but I also don't think that alone would fix it and have never suggested it would. That would require the coach to coach the team better. We could recruit who we liked but until we play differently there will be no improvement. That is why Noble is a poor coach and for the detail as to why see Crunchers post.
Dave'" I disagree again, players are not robots, of course we would play differently with better players, what a mad suggestion!
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| Quote: Georgie Best on a Bloomer "Interestingly, since the start of 1999 you've had the following coaches
Suggest away, but we've also changed the chairman and the owner of the club in that time, and are in the process of changing - hopefully - the entire culture of the club, though that will clearly take more time.
That may go some way towards addressing it, unless - like others who occasionally venture onto this site - you're suggesting (gleefully / mischievously?) it's some intangible problem which will never be solved because quite simply we are Wigan and are therefore fundamentally flawed?
Perhaps one thing we could do is work out some clever tax-dodging trick that will ensure we go straight to the top of the tree and remain there until the tax man eventually (inevitably) catches up with us.
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| Quote: Georgie Best on a Bloomer "Interestingly, since the start of 1999 you've had the following coaches
Correct me if I'm wrong ..but wasn't Raper leaving at the end of the season anyway? also Betts was only a tempory position..Gregory was just a tragic affair..sadly we'll never know how good he could have been..Millward was imo the biggest mistake we ever made (now that was a panic appointment imo) Endacott was imo badly done to..and Noble is still here so take away Raper..Gregory..and..Betts..we have only sacked 4 coaches (two in the same year) in ten years not quite as bad as people make out.
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| Replying to cruncher and diesel.
I'm not on here to try to make mischief: I only do that if people start to patronise me. Trolling is for others, not me.
It's just that Wigan have been through (for you) a rough spell in the last 10 years, and while the salary cap has been an issue along with the fact that all SL clubs are now fully professional, you would think that there would have been a lot more silverware for you guys over the decade.
You've had the spending power of the other big guns in SL, and I was trying to show that you've also had your fair share of decent coaches (I wasn't coming on trying to say that any of them should or shouldn't have been sacked or that any of them have necessarily been the cause of any of the problems.) You've had some good players and good coaches in that time. And that's why I think the problem is elsewhere.
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| Quote: Georgie Best on a Bloomer "Replying to cruncher and diesel.
I'm not on here to try to make mischief: I only do that if people start to patronise me.
And your post makes sense. This is the reason i support Noble. How many more coaches are we going to try? You get to a point where you have to ask yourself is the coach really the problem and if we do sack Noble are we going to bring another coach in who in 2/3 years time has the same problems again because no doubt he will want his own team. I think we should give Noble at another 12 months and next year make sure we have strengthened the forwards and brought in a halfback that can actually run the show and for one that can kick the ball would be nice. Only then can you say well Noble has got his team,he has a team that is balanced and he has failed. Then i would agree you would have to question him as a coach.
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| Quote: Georgie Best on a Bloomer "Replying to cruncher and diesel.
I'm not on here to try to make mischief: I only do that if people start to patronise me.
Fair post.
As I say - and I'll try to be less terse this time - we have made significant changes in the back room over the last couple of years. Whether that will improve things or not, who knows - the signs of a change in our fortunes are very slow. But then perhaps we shouldn't expect anything else. One of our big problems for example is that Stuart Fielden is still taking up a big chunk of the cap. I'm not blaming that for every problem we have, but it's certainly affecting our recruitment capability and must register as a very troublesome hang-over from the former administration (though at the time, to be fair to them, they thought they were buying the best prop forward in the world). Another problem that's only now being addressed is the appointment of more conditioning and training staff, though why it hasn't happened before this year I don't really know.
Whatever fundamental problem lies at the root of this club, there's no point in us asking for a new chairman / owner, etc. That would be no solution - the new guy still needs time to remake the club in his own image. And even if he suddenly decides he's had enough, we'd then have another chaotic period of looking for a buyer etc, and all the worries about Whelan and Latics would resurface - it'd be a nightmare and would surely set us back years.
Aside from all that, I can only really suggest that some sympathetic witch-doctor roll the bones and try to find out which SOB put a curse on us, and, if possible, reverse it - because it feels permanently as if it's one step forward and three steps back.
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