I don't know what Joel Tomkins has to do with a discussion about Jon Wilkin?

Anyway, Jon Wilkin is extremely good defensively but, as I also said, he is an extremely good support player and he [idoes[/i make breaks. His passing can also be sublime. He performs just as well at international level as he does at club level. He will have his role to play just as the other team members do.

Because you said this:




In the Exiles game Joel Tomkins broke through and ran to score a full length try.


You're not very good as this are you?

Ah. I forgot about that. So that is three clean breaks then by the England team.


The discussion wasn't about who made clean breaks though. I'm not on here for a dick measuring contest. It was about Jon Wilkin and what he brings to the England team. So yes, I AM 'good at this' but I can't account for people moving the goal posts.

I'm not Wilkins biggest fan by any means, but I think he had a very good season for Saints and must have been close to being their player of the season. The fact that Gareth Hock had his brain fart and Lockers was unavailable made him an automatic England choice IMO.

Getting back on track, I still don't like the idea of starting with a loose forward at stand off, and only one prop on the bench.

I was waiting for a bite off a Saints fan, I don't think you have got my point.

Wilkin is a decent SL player, he might tackle his heart out but so did Malcolm Alker. You say he has a good passing game and his kicking might get a bit wayward, that proves my point about him ar5ing around thinking he's Wally lewis and he's a 'cherry on the cake' type of player, yes very good in a team on top but he won't be driving the ball out of his own 20 and making yards as he also lacks size too.

Against Aus we need players like Ellis and Westwood playing second row like their lives depend on it, Wilkin is a decent player in SL but not International IMO, it's not Wigan bias as I wouldn't of had Joel Tomkins in before him after this last season where he has been sulking all season, maybe would have had Hock before him if he was a bit fitter.

It's not anti Saints either as I think Roby and Graham always step up to International level.

agreed

based on his season, I think Wilkin deserves his spot in the 17, i've been very impressed with him

And that comment proves my point about you not knowing what Wilkin contributes to a team. What a totally stupid thing to say.

Name one international game where he has a big difference (apart from the one clean break against the exiles).

I'm not saying he's crap, he does well in SL but he has never done anything at International level despite numerous chances.

IMO he isn't physical enough, he doesn't punch holes in defences nor does he hit hard enough in defence mainly due to his size.

Wilkin adds alot. His defence can be very intellegent to shut key players down, aswell as hard working.
He can also show nice lines of attack and good support as well as the talked about ball handling.

However, England are really up against it and I'm all for "Big is Beautiful" in test teams.
I'd have Carvell on the bench instead of Wilkin. I also think for test rugby Wilkin is a long way behind O'Loughlin, whereas at club level he gives him a run for his money. If Burgess was available he'd obviously be in there as well.

Wilkin will not discrace himself against anyone, but he wouldn't be my preference in these situations.

Really Rogues? Gaz Hock for England? I'm not sure if you'd have many people, even from this board, agreeing with you on that one.

On current form I wouldn't have Hock in, needs to be a bit more pro active in defence. Wilkin won't disgrace himself by any means and with him in the team we will compete but we won't win, if I were to play him it would be in a spoiling role at 13 or off the bench with his prime goal of shutting Lockyer, Marshall and Thurston down and niggling them all game, but for that we would need a good organising 7 which we haven't that's why I would play Sinfield so we can accomodate Chase and Widdop who both aren't organisers.

In fairness, Sinfield has played stand off pretty much all season (albeit with 13 on his back) and was the driving force behind Leeds winning the GF.

As far as one prop on the bench goes, McNamara mentioned last night at the 4 Nations Fans forum that he's comfortable with that given that he's got 3 props in the 17 whose time on the field is good in comparison to others - Graham, Peacock and, possibly to a lesser extent, Morley.

When Ben Westwood is added to the mix I think there's a decent argument to say that we've enough cover there.

Biggest problem i have with Sinfield at 6, is he does not posses that creative flair or to use the buzzword "that X-Fcator"

I do however think widdop would be a revelation playing of the back of our pack which is undoubtedly our biggest strength

I do hope i am proved wrong of course !