I don't think many of those arguing that its time to move on think Noble has done a bad job, its just that he isn't the man to take us to the next level.

When reasons for that have been given on this thread there have been some pretty unpleasant personalised attacks on people who dare to criticise BN whether its comments like "idiot" "absolute dross" "stubborn and thick" "utter nonsense" "at least speak the truth rather than making fantasys up" or "half-truths" or allegations that Noble doubters secretly want us to lose....

That's not an opinion by the way, the facts are there in the thread for all to see!

As for the past, no one is arguing that previous coaches weren't given sufficient time. BN has been given plenty of time and it doesn't look like he can take the club any further and there are obvious areas of deficiency within the set-up, team selection etc which could be improved on by a new coaching and backroom team. Its time to bring in someone new.

Are you seriously saying that the likes of Feka and Riddell are fitter than everyone in the early-mid 90s side? Seriously?

Noble could only switch them as there was no one in the reserves to replace them with at full back, hence Ainscough was brought in on the wing.




We weren't rubbish v HKR and playing Sam T in that game would have been wrong. The last 20 mins of the first half was the roughest, toughest I've seen in years. It was knock ons from both sides due to the torrential rain and poor pitch condition.




Just because I see things differently to you Dave does not mean I'm blind. He dropped Ainscough after the Easter weekend and errors on the touchline in both the Saints and Catalans games. I started a thread on here suggesting Ainscough might be dropped as Noble did the same the previous season when Calderwood dropped a high ball v Catalans from which they scored the winning try. According to friends who went to Celtic Ainscough had a nightmare game there. His time will come as he's the most devastating try scoring winger in the game.



Yes ok go with three props and a front row as light and under powered as ours will get blown away. Send out three props and look at the oppositions team sheet and you'll find they're going with five. Bye bye two points! We did that v Wakey a few years ago. Only 3 props due to injuries and Tony Smith fielded five, a home banker turned into two points for Wakey.







Of course he's achieved improvement. He's taken us from a relegation team to a semi finals team. To take us up another level to a final winning team we need quality signings and everyone including our chairman knows this. As for dropping out of form players, there are other threads discussing whether Noble should drop Joel T or Flanagan as both are not at the top of their game. Neither are but who will he bring in? Mossop and who? Into a play off semi final? The answer is no one after Mossop and he'd start to struggle after 15 mins.

We have the best reserves and youth set up in the game but bringing lads out of the reserves into the first team is a massive jump. The gap is so wide it is doubtful it can be bridged under the current RFL/SL rules. This is why our lads are going out on loan. Mossop and Flanagan have benefited from this and are now gradually getting first team experience.
Any coach knows this and Anderson said whilst at Saints that younger players will give you a good game or two but then their performaces fade. This is the difficulty all coaches have and it's a major problem.
Brian Noble and the Wigan club are no exception.

You were saying earlier in the thread that the players we had at the time were far fitter than anyone else out there. I would agree, AT THAT TIME!

Now without going into the "We were the only FT Team argument!" How do you KNOW that we were Far fitter than the other teams?
What were the reasons we were far fitter? I.E did we take a massive Jump on all the other clubs at that time? A jump that took teams almost 10 x years to catch up.
We were winning things and hardly anyone else could finance this level of investment etc etc etc.
It was self perpetuating and we took it to the maximum.

HOWEVER

It is without a Shadow of a doubt that "All the Players" and "All the Teams" are now vastly fitter & Superior in tactical awareness and Fitness compared to 15 years ago!

Whether they are "Better" is a different argument and one which, when we discuss the merits of the SC/CC I would gladly aqrgue that all things currently aren't rosy.

HOWEVER

Feka for example is a product of the modern game and the Rules and strategies of that game.
If we could only have 2 x subs & 4 x interchanges he would drastically have to change his game, but it isn't, so there is a roll for him in his current format.
Could he be fitter? Could he be slimmer?
I would ask you, How do you know, the answers to these questions without access to training schedules,results etc?
Or is it Just an OPINION?

You brought Riddell into the argument, I know that he he is not 1 ounce over the playing weight set for him by the club and to what he has been playing within for the last 5 years in the NRL.
Are you telling me the coaches of the 2 x clubs in the NRL don't know what they're doing either?

The game has changed and "Competitiveness" seems to be the buzz word instead of "Excellence".

To manufacture that Competitiveness there are a lit of restrictions and regulations brought on all clubs that mean Quick change isn't possible always.
If we don't get reults immediately some times it is better to be patient and invest in systems & Processes rather than chop & change and look for success purely on a player recruitment basis.

Now you also failed to mention that i put in the sentance "In Comparison".

This is the key, Is Piggy as fit as Nicky Kiss/Martin Dermott was?

Was Kelvin Skerrett fitter than Feka?

I would say they both meet the required standards "Comparitively" for their positions and the situations they find themselves in within the current rules of the game.

But I would also say it helped our players in the the ealry 90's that we were so far ahead of everyone else it often seemed like our players were superhuman!
They were'nt, the club found a way of leaping forward in front of other clubs and the players etc took advantage of that.

Yes there are new ways of training/improving fitnees that "May" help us to take the next step forward.

But I will ask again, show me proof or facts that we are doing something poorly OR that the next man in will definatley have improved effects and will 100% work and I will be prepared to listen.
Because you know what, they may also FAIL.

Other than that, it's opinion, and that's where I disagree with most of the Anti Noble posters.
They pick on his failings, of which there are undoubtably some as with any coach, and then word it that if "XY&Z" happened we would defianatley be in a better state. That may or may not be true, only time will tell, but please don't sour EVERYTHING than BN has done to try & prove a point that he isn't the man to take us forward when it is obvious that he has done Many Good things for this club and his tenure has seen far more positives than Negatives!

This is what is causing alot of the problem, the mindless few who cannot see anything positive in anything Noble has done.

That's an extremely lengthy reply but I'm not sure you've answered the question.

Are you saying that every member of the current side is fitter than every member of say the team that beat Brisbane on their own ground to win the WCC?

If you are - and frankly that would be an astonishing statement - then I'm sure anyone reading this thread will be able to draw the appropriate conclusion about your argument.

If you are saying that it is only my opinion that Feka is overweight the question is whether or not you share that opinion. I would have thought that given the obvious nature of his excess weight it would not be a controversial opinion but would be an accepted conclusion to draw from the evidence.

If you do share this opinion then it begs the question as to how Feka can be fitter than every member of the mid-90s Wigan side, none of whom were carrying excess baggage from what I remember, but were all very fit full-time professional RL players.

If you don't think he is overweight then please say so and again anyone reading this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.

Yet another insult, but just who are the mindless few you are talking about?

Have any "Noble doubters" said he has done nothing positive? The consensus on this side of the argument is that Noble has done a good job but with some shortcomings and that all things considered he isn't the right man to take the club to the next level. No-one as far as I am aware has said he's a rubbish coach who has not done anything positive for the club. That would be "mindless" but no-one is saying that! It is wrong to paint the Noble doubters as saying this kind of rubbish; it seems to me that this allegation is just a way of trying to avoid having to address the serious points about preparation, conditioning, pre-season work, team selection and consistency throughout the season that Noble doubters are making.

And I asked you a few questions which you didn't seem to want to answer.

Do I think feka is Over weight?
Overweight as a person?
Overweight for a Winger?
Overweight for a 70 min prop?
Overweight for a 35/40 min a game impact Prop?

If it's the last then I would say this, I, JUST LIKE YOU, don't know what is weight is, whether being a stone slimmer or a stone heavier would improve him or make him worse OR if in fact he is playing on or around his optimum weight for the job he does!
But I'll tell you this, I wouldn't swap him for any other Prop in this country who does a similar job.

Do you have any facts to shed on this????

PS

For the 3rd time I will say it again. The players we have at the club are comparitively (Position for position) as fit if not fitter than the early to mid 90's!

However the standards of the the other players both in this country & in the NRL are also vastly superior to what they were until we have a stalemate now where NO CLUB as unfit players nd the gap in fitness between the winners and Mid table teams you could bet is miniscule "In Comparison" to the Gap between Wigan & the rest in the late 80's early/mid 90's.

99% of all players in SL now are comaparable to the players of the early to mid 90's.

It doesn't make them as good as them but I would like a nice wager that if you took strength/speed/endurance etc tests on today's players at ANY CLUB they would comapre favourably to those of 15/20 years ago!

Might be a good question to ask jonh?

You're now asking yourself questions rather than answering the simple question of whether Feka is overweight. He is. If he were fitter he would be more effective. He is less fit than any member of the mid 90s team.

I would seriously doubt whether there is any difference in the fitness of the early-mid 90s sides compared with the current team. From '91 or '92 (I think) the team were entirely full time pro'. Players like Edwards, Clarke, Connolly, Platt etc were at least as fit as their current equivalents. What we didn't have then though was overweight players like Feka and Riddell, both of whom would not have been allowed to be fat back when Wigan's standards were higher. Feka's fatigue and resulting lack of mobility has been exposed this season at times. He could play for longer periods if he were fitter and I use the example of Inga because he lost none of his devastating power as a runner when he lost weight. If anything the increased speed and muscle bulk added to his ability to smash through opposition defences. So yes, Feka is not as fit as he could be, whether that is a general observation or by reference to his position or role within the team.

In any event the question is not whether or not the team is fitter than it was 15 years ago but whether it is as fit as it could be.... you still haven't addressed the question of whether or not improvements can be made in this area....

But please, carry on ignoring the issues and asking yourself questions.

My point is that we almost lost half our games (44%). I wasn't the poster who said that we had lost half our games. The main point is that this is not good enough for Wigan. We will win more than 16 games next year.

It does seem surprising that Noble's Wigan sides always seem so inconsistent throughout the season up to the tail end of seasons/ play-off's.

Perhaps this is a Noble tactic? If it is and we win the GF I reckon a few of the "Pro-Noble" supporters will say it's a good tactic to employ, to hit form when it matters.

Perhaps then the criticism of Noble should be aimed more at the concept of the play-off's if, indeed, Noble purposely focuses only on the end of the season as that's all that matters and Noble is simply playing the league as he feels is the best way to achieve perceived success.

For fans who follow week in, week out this is much to our chagrin but is it because in all honesty the league is irrelevant?

The league wasn't irrelevant last season, or the season before, and it was a similar tale on both those occasions.

Anyway, I've had enough of this now. No more Noble chat from me until after this weekend's game. With luck I may be even more in the minority.