It is unlikely they'll be fully fit, as in having every single player available and at 100% for the play offs but that probably goes for everyone. If they can get a fully fit spine out, along with Walmsley, Paasi, Knowles etc come the play offs, they'll be massively dangerous. Those games are just different to the week to week stuff and no other side has that experience like they do. Most play off games and grand finals are a war of attrition and a total grind and that's pretty much how Saints play every single week.

Just out of interest, if Saints aren't our biggest threat (presuming you don't think they are), who do you think are? There is no way we do to Saints what we did to HKR in the Cup and Play off semis and they wouldn't make things as easy as Wire did in the cup final. I can't see that this seasons Catalans would offer a bigger threat either, so that leaves Salford. They actually could shake things up if they were brave enough to keep play the expansive/off the cuff rugby they do in the weekly rounds but again, it's just so different in plays offs and especially Grand Finals.

Absolutely spot on. Our biggest chance is now the wet weather games come October when our game plan actually suits.

Its difficult to see past Wigan with their pace and depth of squad but anything can happen between now and the end of the season. French or Smith being out with a Thompson and O Neill say would have a big impact.

Phuzzy is spot on too with our away form and Walmsley taking time to get fit but if (and its a big if at the moment) we finish top 2 then we will at least have players back fresh and not flogged all season- Batchelor, Knowles, Whitley, Walmsley, Makinson etc.

The game at Wigan is going to be very interesting for a number of reasons.

What are your thoughts Stu? Do you think a top 2 finish likely? I know anything is possible but I can't see it with your fixture list personally. As you say, the Wigan game is pivotal. Lose that and I think you'll struggle.

I can't see it no not with our fixtures left. We have some really tricky ones and as you allude to our away form is not the best against the big sides in particular. This is why the timing of Wellens contract extension is tricky for the club because the longer they leave it, the more they will get a backlash if indeed we do lose a couple more in the next few weeks.

In some ways he was left with an ageing squad and a hard task but on the other hand he has been very naive and made a lot of mistakes- persisting with Bennison is one.

We suffered the occasional hammering under Woolf- Salford away- funnily enough- in 2022 was a particularly bad defeat but its hard to imagine as many defeats this season under Woolf even with the same squad.

I think we're in danger of over-doing this. They're not going to have a properly fully fit squad, but they've got Walmsley, Lomax, Knowles, Whitley, Wingfield, Makinson & Batchelor to add to yesterday's squad. The law of averages suggests that they'll lose a couple too, but they could very easily go into the play offs without needing to play dead-weights like Bennison or have squaddies on the bench who Wellens won't play.

Having players who have been there and done it counts for a lot, and I'd say Saints getting us in an arm wrestle is still the most likely way to prevent us from winning again at OT.

To answer the last part first, I think you've sort of got my thinking in your comments on Salford. It's not just them though. I think the same goes for Hull KR and Warrington. They're all "if it sticks" type teams and all 3 are more dangerous than Saints when on. You're right in that we probably wouldn't do to Saints what we did to Hull KR in the semi but equally Saints wouldn't do to us what KR did at their place. I think I'd be more confident going into a playoff game against Saints knowing what we're going to get and knowing that we have the game to beat it than going up against KR, Salford or Warrington and knowing that, if it sticks, anything could happen.

On the first part; I agree their pack is still good at full strength but, as I say, I don't think it will be. Walmsley won't be the same player straight off and, if previous long lay offs are anything to go by, there's no guarantee he'll get back there this season. Of course he may do but it's certainly not a given. Paasi is still working his way back into it and the early signs are encouraging. We still have no way to know if he'll ever regain the full destructive form that he had pre injury. He wouldn't be the first if he didn't. He only need look behind him to Dodd for an example of a player who hasn't regardless of the number of games he's played. Mata'utia isn't the 2nd rower he was, mainly due to being bulked up to play prop. Still a good player though. Bachelor is a shadow of what he was and there's been no indication he's anywhere close to regaining his form. Sironen, great player though he is, is being flogged. Lees, Delaney and Clark are also being flogged. Mbye reverting to bench Hooker will help Clark but Wellens will continue to flog Lees. He just does. These players all ran out of gas last year and they've got a very tough run in after next week. No reason to suspect it will be any different this year.

And all that is assuming they won't pick up any further injuries, players coming back will not get reinjured and that they'll be at there best come the playoffs, all of which I think is unlikely. Certainly no more so than any other team anyway. I'm not sure why we keep saying referencing Saints as if they're going to be fully fit and in form but refer to other teams at their worst. It doesn't make sense.

Just on the players coming back; I've already covered my thoughts on a few in my answer to NK but you mention a couple others above so I'll address those.

Most Saints fans have thought Lomax has been a cause of their poor attacking form and, until yesterday at least, most have noted that they're actually better with Mbye in the halves. Mbye wouldn't get close to our team. He wouldn't be Hooker over O'Neil, interchange Hooker over Leeming or half over Smith or French. The best he could hope for would be back up half/Hooker instead of Hampshire. Lomax hasn't been as good as Mbye this year. Let that sink in a minute. I'm not sure how his return will suddenly galvanise them into something they aren't already. It could even make them worse again.

Whitely doesn't make the team if everyone is fit. He may take a bench spot which would be better than the dead wood that currently inhabit them. It's not going to win them a title though.

Makinson is better than Bennison so that will improve them. I have personal knowledge of plantar fasciitis though and there's no guarantees regarding his return to fitness. He could aggravate it in his first carry back. He may not. We'll see.

Knowles will add to them defensively but they lose in attack. That means using a sub spot for Bell. You're then relying on Knowles as a prop and I'm less convinced he adds to them from that position.

Wingfield will add squad depth, nothing more.

I'm not sure there's anything there that significantly changes the synopsis. And that, as you say, isn't allowing for further injuries.

Ateotd their backs aren't good enough to win the title. Just my opinion, of course.

It'll be interesting in a couple of weeks, I've no doubt Saints will be up for it and if we once again struggle to break them down then questions might be asked especially as the blue print for beating them is pretty well known by now.
I'm not saying chuck it around from minute one but you have to go after their 3/4 line especially Hurrell, he's back to what he was at the end of his Leeds spell, an absolute oil tanker and with Makinson out they've got nothing on either wing to worry about especially as PW won't give the one lad with pace they've got, Ritson, a run for love nor money.

At this rate Roby will be dusting his boots off

I don't particularly disagree with most of those assessments. But yesterday they had to play Bennison who - without wanting to be harsh - offers nothing and they also had two subs who barely played. Walmsley, Lomax and Makinson, even at 75/80%, is a huge improvement on that.

They're obviously on the decline just now and I think they've made mistakes by offering new contracts to older players and not blooding youngsters. Especially now they have so many injuries. But for this season they're not so over the hill that they can't be a serious threat in a big game. It's only 18 months since they were the undisputed top dogs, and I think back to all the times that Leeds looked over the hill during the season then turned it on at the business end.

I certainly don't disagree. Every team offers a threat. That's the nature of sport so I'm certainly not ruling Saints out, although I appreciate it might come across that way. I'm merely commenting in "all things being equal" terms. I think it will be hard for them to make top 2 (although certainly not impossible) and I don't fancy their chances from outside the top 2. It would take too many sides having an off game and Saints being relatively injury free, in form and on their game, every game. I just think that's a tall order.

Also, regarding them being top dogs 18 months ago I would add that 18 months is a long time in professional sport when you're at the back end of your career. Look at Roby last year compared to the year before. I also think the current team is worse man for man than the one you refer to, especially when you compare the current versions of some of the players to their 18 months ago versions. I can't think of many that are improved tbh.

All a game of opinions but the bookies aren't usually far off the money. They obviously have Wigan as favourites for the Grand Final, with Saints second favourites at 5/2 and then a big gap to Wire and HKR at 9/1 apiece.

It's a long time in sport in general tbh.

I was a little shocked on Friday, whilst looking at the pic of the 2022 CF winning squad, as to how many have left the club in such a relatively short space of time. 7 of the starting 17 have gone - Thornley, Bibby, Cust, Tommy, Singo, Bateman & Smithies. Add in the squad players stood in the background guys like KPP, Shorrocks, Partington, McDonnell & Powell have all left too.

Fair enough - I don't think we're disagreeing a great deal in terms of them being on the slide. Just maybe about the degree of their drop off. You're right about 18 months having the potential to be a long time in sport too. It has to be given the amount of ground we had to make up to go past them - which we obviously have.

My view is simply that we shouldn't overdo their decline too early, especially when they're missing half a team. Injuries will probably stop them finishing in the top two, but with a few key players back they are still a force to be reckoned with, and I'd make them decent favourites against both Hull KR and Wire away because of what they've done in the past, and their ability to win big games. Even this season we can look to Good Friday as an example for how their defence and intensity can cause anyone problems.

I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that if I were a Saints fan, I'd feel pretty gloomy about their prospects for the next couple of years but actually feel pretty optimistic about doing something this campaign.

As I remember Saints started the season as favorites last year