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Quote: Stu M "I see no- one has mentioned that we were without 5 injured players yesterday and still won.

No Knowles, Lees, Walmsley, Matautia or Hopoate


If lost those many players for a few games (like Wigan in the past) you would lose more games than win

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SAINTS THE ORIGINAL AND PERENNIAL CHEATS For sale full Saints kit (circa 1989). Shirts in pristine condition, but shorts badly soiled. For 27 - 0 you get a trophy For 75 - 0 you get sod all. Wigan had eight in a row Saints have five in a row:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_3076.jpg



Quote: Stu M "I see no- one has mentioned that we were without 5 injured players yesterday and still won.

No Knowles, Lees, Walmsley, Matautia or Hopoate


Stu, put the fishing rod away, you're far better than that.

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Quote: Rogues Gallery "Stu, put the fishing rod away, you're far better than that.'"


I thought the icon_wink.gif would have been the give away that it was tongue in cheek.

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Quote: Phuzzy "*What an absolute cop out.

So no answers then? I'll take it you agree with me on all points.

*I quoted you as describing Wigan players in general as average. I was disproving the point as well you know. Show me where you singled out Field, or any other Wigan player, as falling in the "World Class" category. You only mentioned 2 categories in your post

Eh?

I said Wigan have "more" average players than Saints. I did not say all your players were average and I certainly didn't say Field was (indeed I said you would struggle to score points without him at the moment and he is electric against lazy defenders but that I'd like to see him more against the league's big boys before making my mind up). Do you disagree? If so, say so rather than pretending I said Wigan players are average and Saints players world class.

The only time I mentioned "world class" was regarding Walmsley. Alex Walmsley IS world class. Wigan do not have any world class players. Bateman had a claim at one pont but there has been nothing world class about him since he returned to Wigan. Again, feel free to disagree if you like with what I ACTUALLY said. FWIW I think AW is the only genuinely world class player across the two squads, with Roby/Knowles the best of the rest.

If I said the words Christmas and Tuesday in a post it wouldn't mean I was saying every day is either Christmas or Tuesday, so I don't really know what you're on about in trying to pretend I said all players are average or world class. Feels a bit diversionary to me so I ignored it.

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It’ll all go back to what is ‘World Class’ this but I’d be tempted to say if Walmsley is then Bateman absolutely is. One is battering an average superleague and the other proved his class in the best league (by an absolute mile) in the world. One is yet to prove anything on the international stage and the other has played a big part for England over a number of seasons. They’re the only two that come in to the conversation though, I’ll give you that (Knowles could take that next step soon and maybe prove it in the World Cup).

In terms of what is world class, I’d say it’s one of the best 5-10 players in their position in the world. If it’s a position there is only one of, like fullback, hooker or loose forward, I’d say you need be top 5 but if it’s a position were there are two of them starting the game, such as centre, prop or second row, I’d push it to top 10. That is absolutely my own personal opinion though and everyone will see what ‘World Class’ is differently.

On that basis Walmsley and Bateman have a case but I’d probably find it easier to put a case forward for Bateman, due to him throwing the superleague comfort blanket off and testing himself where he could prove it. I think Walmsley would go pretty well in the NRL but it wouldn’t be a walk in the park for him. His size and rep here would put a huge target on him. The World Cup is huge for his reputation on a wider scale IMO.

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Quote: NickyKiss "It’ll all go back to what is ‘World Class’ this but I’d be tempted to say if Walmsley is then Bateman absolutely is. One is battering an average superleague and the other proved his class in the best league (by an absolute mile) in the world. One is yet to prove anything on the international stage and the other has played a big part for England over a number of seasons. They’re the only two that come in to the conversation though, I’ll give you that (Knowles could take that next step soon and maybe prove it in the World Cup).

In terms of what is world class, I’d say it’s one of the best 5-10 players in their position in the world. If it’s a position there is only one of, like fullback, hooker or loose forward, I’d say you need be top 5 but if it’s a position were there are two of them starting the game, such as centre, prop or second row, I’d push it to top 10. That is absolutely my own personal opinion though and everyone will see what ‘World Class’ is differently.

On that basis Walmsley and Bateman have a case but I’d probably find it easier to put a case forward for Bateman, due to him throwing the superleague comfort blanket off and testing himself where he could prove it. I think Walmsley would go pretty well in the NRL but it wouldn’t be a walk in the park for him. His size and rep here would put a huge target on him. The World Cup is huge for his reputation on a wider scale IMO.'"


The Canberra Bateman was most definitley world class. Has he performed at the same level since his return? Nowhere near IMO. Whether his shoulder injury is more of a problem or not, who knows but he has been nothing like the same player. Farrell has been way more consistent. Being completely honest I'm not too fussed if he plays against us or not anymore and I definitely wouldn't have said that a couple of years ago.

Now that I've said this, he'll rip it up on Good Friday!!

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Quote: NickyKiss "It’ll all go back to what is ‘World Class’ this but I’d be tempted to say if Walmsley is then Bateman absolutely is. One is battering an average superleague and the other proved his class in the best league (by an absolute mile) in the world. One is yet to prove anything on the international stage and the other has played a big part for England over a number of seasons. They’re the only two that come in to the conversation though, I’ll give you that (Knowles could take that next step soon and maybe prove it in the World Cup). '"


But this is exactly what I said - Bateman showed it at one point but hasn't been remotely world class since his return - by the way he plays in the same average superleague that AW does, just without looking world class. Which willl probably be pinned on the players around him, before the next post says Saints are useless without AW icon_smile.gif

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[b:2boqkfe7][color=#800000:2boqkfe7]WIGAN RLFC - SL ERA WORLD CLUB CHAMPIONS 2017 & 2024 SUPER LEAGUE CHAMPIONS 1998, 2010, 2013, 2016, 2018, 2023 & 2024 CHALLENGE CUP FINAL WINNERS 2002, 2011, 2013, 2022 & 2024 LEAGUE LEADERS CHAMPIONS 2010, 2012, 2020, 2023 & 2024 ACADEMY GRAND FINAL WINNERS 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2024 WOMEN’S GRAND FINAL WINNERS 2018 BEST SUPPORTED CLUB OF THE YEAR 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2024 CLUB OF THE YEAR 2010 & 2012 [/color:2boqkfe7][/b:2boqkfe7]:



Bateman has played at a world class level, I've seen him improve somewhat lately but he's still nowhere near the player he was when he previously at Wigan.

It's fair to compare him against his old Wigan performances but I'm not so sure we can compare against his Canberra appearances (yes he played against a higher level of opposition but he did have better class of teammates around him as well).

If he can get back to anywhere he was prior to leaving us I'd be happy.

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Quote: FearTheVee "But this is exactly what I said - Bateman showed it at one point but hasn't been remotely world class since his return - by the way he plays in the same average superleague that AW does, just without looking world class. Which willl probably be pinned on the players around him, before the next post says Saints are useless without AW

Anyway back to my original point, if refs clampdown on moving off the mark (yes AW I'm looking at you), something in his game that's even been mentioned on RedVee, what do you think the effect will be on Saints ?
Just telling him to move back and play the ball slows your attack down considerably (happened in the Wigan/Salford game last week).

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Quote: apollosghost "Anyway back to my original point, if refs clampdown on moving off the mark (yes AW I'm looking at you), something in his game that's even been mentioned on RedVee, what do you think the effect will be on Saints ?
Just telling him to move back and play the ball slows your attack down considerably (happened in the Wigan/Salford game last week).'"


I think if this happened AW will carry on carrying for well over 100m every game, busting tackles, winning collisions and being the best prop in the league and we would be just fine icon_smile.gif

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Quote: FearTheVee "I think if this happened AW will carry on carrying for well over 100m every game, busting tackles, winning collisions and being the best prop in the league and we would be just fine
No doubt he'd still be the best prop in the league but I reckon not being able to take the markers out of the game will definitely slow your attack down and let's face it, it is pretty one dimensional, batter up the middle, put on "the move" and if the batter up the middle gets slowed down then "the move" becomes much easier to defend icon_smile.gif

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Quote: FearTheVee "But this is exactly what I said - Bateman showed it at one point but hasn't been remotely world class since his return - by the way he plays in the same average superleague that AW does, just without looking world class. Which willl probably be pinned on the players around him, before the next post says Saints are useless without AW
I think the Bateman demise has been exaggerated to a degree. He’s having a good season so far and he’s certainly a guy I see as a big game player, so hopefully he’ll have some of those to play in. I’ll be honest though, I think there was maybe a view from him last year that superleague was a step down (and it is) and just a general come down after having to be at his very best week in, week out for the previous two years (it’s not easy playing in an appalling team also and that’s what we were). I think a fire is building in him again but like it or not, you are only as good as those around you and he needs them to perform, just like they need him.

Bateman has cash in the bank in regards to being World class but it doesn’t last for ever. Walmsley himself and the whole Saints team seem to be able to find motivation to win every collision in (most) games, let alone the game as a whole, so fair play for that and Walmsley is pushing himself and playing at the absolute top of his game. I do think he’s World Class but the NRL isn’t easy and people will always be convinced by either a) him doing it in the NRL or b) Him doing it on the international stage. You look at Thompson and he seems to be slowly regressing in to a run of the mill NRL prop forward and I thought his form before he went there was ‘World Class’ as well.

I pray Walmsley shows us how World Class he is in the World Cup. We’re going to need him to do that to stand a chance of winning it.

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Quote: apollosghost "No doubt he'd still be the best prop in the league but I reckon not being able to take the markers out of the game will definitely slow your attack down and let's face it, it is pretty one dimensional, batter up the middle, put on "the move" and if the batter up the middle gets slowed down then "the move" becomes much easier to defend
There is a slight obsession on here with "the move" and Saints (which understandably comes from trying to draw parallels between our current success and the fact that Wigan fans said their own team was boring to watch the last time they had a succesful side that defended with intesity).

I think what is meant by "the move" is a sweeping move ending with a cut-out pass to a winger? If so, I think we've scored about 140 points in our last 4 games and maybe scored a try like this about 4 or 5 times?

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Quote: FearTheVee "There is a slight obsession on here with "the move" and Saints (which understandably comes from trying to draw parallels between our current success and the fact that Wigan fans said their own team was boring to watch the last time they had a succesful side that defended with intesity).

I think what is meant by "the move" is a sweeping move ending with a cut-out pass to a winger? If so, I think we've scored about 140 points in our last 4 games and maybe scored a try like this about 4 or 5 times?'"


The winger passing the ball back inside still counts as "the move" icon_wink.gif

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Quote: NickyKiss "I think the Bateman demise has been exaggerated to a degree. He’s having a good season so far and he’s certainly a guy I see as a big game player, so hopefully he’ll have some of those to play in. I’ll be honest though, I think there was maybe a view from him last year that superleague was a step down (and it is) and just a general come down after having to be at his very best week in, week out for the previous two years (it’s not easy playing in an appalling team also and that’s what we were). I think a fire is building in him again but like it or not, you are only as good as those around you and he needs them to perform, just like they need him.

Bateman has cash in the bank in regards to being World class but it doesn’t last for ever. Walmsley himself and the whole Saints team seem to be able to find motivation to win every collision in (most) games, let alone the game as a whole, so fair play for that and Walmsley is pushing himself and playing at the absolute top of his game. I do think he’s World Class but the NRL isn’t easy and people will always be convinced by either a) him doing it in the NRL or b) Him doing it on the international stage. You look at Thompson and he seems to be slowly regressing in to a run of the mill NRL prop forward and I thought his form before he went there was ‘World Class’ as well.

I pray Walmsley shows us how World Class he is in the World Cup. We’re going to need him to do that to stand a chance of winning it.'"


Sometimes you just need to believe the evidence of your own eyes. It is patently obvious how good AW is as a prop. He's chosen not to play in the NRL but it's not for lack of offers - I doubt it is an exeggeration to say that every single NRL club would have wanted to sign him had he been available in recent years.

He and Thompson played together and Thompson is clearly a good prop, but he's never been a walking one man pack in the way that AW can be and has been. AW lost Thompson and then James Graham alongside him and if anything just got better and better.

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