enjoyed the last month but glad I dont have a season ticket anymore

I'm not saying that the way the attack has functioned is just down to injuries, some of the play has been like junior level. My view is that the team have worked to a limited game plan and I think that has a lot to do with the players missing. They have made their way to the final games of the season with a shot of winning something. When it has mattered against Wire, Hull x 2 the players have produced the attacking skills to get the wins.

Absolutely. The perseverance with Williams is a good example, as is bringing Gildart into the side at the business end of last season.

I think Shaun Wane's greatest achievement would be changing the minds of those who've decided he's crap despite getting us to numerous Grand Finals, and I don't hold out much chance of it.

I understand where people are coming from on this ...

On one hand you can argue that we've played badly but still finished second and reached the Grand Final, which is a great accomplishment - the caveats being that the rest of the league was very poor and that on occasion we haven't just played badly, we've been abysmal; the Wakefield and Widnes games were all-time Wigan lows in the SL era.

On the other you can argue that there are no real caveats, that we've still reached OT despite being hamstrung by a genuine, season-long injury crisis, which, almost unbelievably, we are still in the midst of, despite having a lot of very young, homegrown talent in the squad, despite several of our seniors badly underperforming, and despite Wane having to operate without a recognised attack coach. It doesn't look quite as bad when you examine it from that angle.

I think it's too easy to say that Shaun Wane's shortcomings have been exposed by our poor performances this year. He's still got us within a sniff of the title. That doesn't happen by accident, and for everything that might have made it easier for him, there are other things that made it more difficult.

I freely admit that I think a top NRL coach would do a lot more with this Wigan team, but realistically what are the chances of anyone coming over here? SL is not a sexy option at present, mainly because the competition is run by morons and is skint compared to the NRL, and because most of our best players now go over there.

In moments of frustration this season, I too have called for a new coach ... but later I always wondered if there was anyone else in SL I'd want instead, and I couldn't think of a single name.

For all these reasons, and whatever happens on Saturday, I don't think we've seen the end of Shaun Wane at Wigan just yet. Some won't like it, some won't mind ... but I think we'd all better get used to the idea.

I often feel my points never really come across, nobody wants Wigan to win and do well more than I. I've never wanted Wane sacked, I've only wanted improvement, and regardless of a grand final spot, or second in the league, there's so much improvement in that team with the ball. I don't believe we've improved, quite the opposite over the last few years. We've managed to get where we are this year due to a combination of amazing defence, team spirit and the fact the overall standard in SL has slipped massively. Yes of course Wane takes credit for how we defend and the spirit he's instilled, by the same token he takes the flack for an attack that has gotten gradually worse over progressive seasons.

I know you are presenting a balanced argument and that is not necessarily your view but I'm not sure where the evidence is that Super League is poor.

People say that the evidence is to just look with your own eyes - well, I've been watching since the late sixties and rugby league is an infinitely better spectacle than it was back then. The players are fitter, the game is faster, defence is better and for that reason the attackers have to do a lot more with the ball then they ever did.

This season has seen injury crises in just about every club, testament to the fact that the game is so much quicker and more brutal than it ever was. So it may seem that the quality right now is a bit lower.

The likes of Leeds and Huddersfield dropped off a cliff and Hull and Warrington replaced them - I'm not sure that is proof that the standard is lower. The league is much more competitive even than it was 7 years ago when just Leeds and Saints had any chance of winning it.

I for one, enjoy the fact that the bottom team is capable of beating the top team. People used to complain on here when 5 years ago we battered opponents with scores of over 50+ saying it proved the league was poor, now when the games are close, they are still saying it (though it may not be the same people). And I'm glad that Hull emerged this season. It was refreshing. I hope Leigh do the same next year.

I understand what you're getting at with this but I think you are confusing competitiveness with quality. A closer league doesn't mean the quality is better. Rather than all teams stepping up to Leeds and Saints' standards 7 years or so ago, we've actually slipped to everybody elses level and that level is arguably even lower than it was back then.

Yes, it's obviously great that the league is more competitive and as a result more interesting. Our seasons play out a lot better for that fact...

But as far as quality goes it's dog . Pretty much every big game between the top clubs over here is either a dull defense-a-thon or a plagued with knock ons and handling errors which in turn re-enforces the coaches belief that they should stick to negative tactics in the bigger games. The games and league may be closer, but the sport is dire to watch at the minute and I think the close scorelines just distract from that fact.

Like has been said in this thread, you've managed to finish 2nd and get to a grand final despite being ravaged by injuries. We did that in 2011 too. And in 2014 we are widely acknowledged as the worst team to ever win Super League (and we finished top too!) and won the grand final with a half back partnership of Turner and Flanagan. Do you think any of these things happen if the quality of the sport is high all-round? Not a chance. Warrington are widely regarded as the best team in the league this season and they are not even a patch on their 2011/12 sides that never managed to win the SL, and that was just a couple of years ago and everybody was saying the standard had slipped then too!

I really worry what will happen if we keep sitting back and watch the quality dip year by year... Maybe one year Wakefield (for example) will win the Super League and whilst that'd be cool in so far as how bonkers it is, it'll really be a sign that there's no quality left, despite the RFL probably talking it up as proof of how amazing and exciting Super League is.

I'm in agreement with you Reaper. We have no top Aussies, no top RU converts and can't retain our own best players in many cases. How can the current standard be higher than in recent years (who cares if it's better than the sixties btw)?

That's an excellent post. I don't want the low standard of the league to mask how much we can improve. I've never once stated I think we are a poor team, quite the opposite, it's been pure frustration at how bad we have been for way too much of this season, when we are capable of so much more.

I don't want us to accept that as long as we don't slip as much as the rest we will be fine, I want improvement and new ideas, not the same old drab play followed by the same excuses, which is all talked away because somehow we are still better than the majority. Being better than a bad bunch doesn't make you good, just less bad.

The season has been a strange one. We averaged 14 points a game in the first 23 rounds yet the defence dragged us into contention.

Since the 8s started were averaging around 30 points a game yet SW is still getting slated for poor attack. I think people forget how young this squad is and a lot of them are learning on the job. If we can keep the core element together we could build something really special. A win on Saturday will be a massive boost to players and another huge step in their development.

SW should be given credit for the blooding of the youngsters over his tenure here because had it gone wrong it would have been his neck on the line. Compare that to other sides eg Saints where they would rather swap five players positions rather than give a young lad out of the 19s a game

I'd agree with that, but also mention what Matty Smith said in an interview last week.

Smith said: “We’re known as a structured side, aren’t we?

“But the off-the-cuff stuff seems to be working more than the structure at the minute.

“We know we’ve got players who can win games.

“It’s alright keep saying (the attack will click), but actions are bigger, and over the last four weeks we’ve played better.



That to me says the players, and hopefully Wane now understand that their tactics were wrong, we have to let our better players play and let them express themselves. If Wane has admitted as much then I have no quarrels at all, it shows that he's learned from his players how best this team works.

Saints Fan in peace here!

I have spoken to Shaun Wane on many occasions and his sheer desire for Wigan to succeed is unequalled. He knows he has made mistakes in the way Wigan attack and in my opinion Paul Deacon was never replaced with a like for like coach and I expect that to be rectified in the winter months. For a man who has lead Wigan to the last four Grand Finals some of the treatment of him is woeful at best. He won in 2013, Ben Flower's dismissal in 2014 killed any chance of Wigan winning the game despite one huge effort from you with 12 men (a huge effort instilled by Wane "never say die attitude". As a Saints fan if Flower doesn't commit that moment of madness I do believe Wigan would have won that particular Grand Final. Last year you came up against a truly great Leeds side and you did have your chances to win the game but in sport sometimes it just isn't your day, I've obviously experienced that as a Saints fan on a few occasions at Grand Finals as you all know.

This year Wigan haven't been great I understand that. You have had some horrendous injuries to pivotal people McIllorum, O'Loughlin, Manfredi and more recently Tomkins (not to mention other injuries and the fact you lost John Bateman for the best part of 2 months with a internal suspension). The sheer determination to over come adversity is a testament to your coach. Wane is a highly regarded coach and if he wins the GF tomorrow he should go down as a Wigan legend for life.

Enjoy the game tomorrow and have a safe journey

You speak good sense my friend.

Shaun will be here for many years to come and thank God for that.

I guess his detractors on here will have found Saturday quite bittersweet.

It wasn't bittersweet for me, I've never wanted anything but success. We've been fortunate this season that SL is as poor as it is, no way should a team with the injuries we've had and such poor attack be finishing second in the league and winning a grand final. But it isn't our fault we are the best of a bad bunch, I just know we can and should have been even better at times. I'm as elated as the next man that we won, and I look forward to getting our players back and seeing things improve even more.