To be fair though Stu you also have to look at the tackles made. Wigan had to make sixty more so Saints had a lot more possession.

Only two Saints players made over 25 tackles, Wigan had six, with three of them over 40 tackles.

Also a big refereeing mistake was when straight after the Paasi knock on at the start of the second half Lomax stripped the ball in a three man tackle. Powell picks the ball up and goes over the line. Minimum penalty but I think would have been given as a try had he gone to the video ref.

Correct, especially once Tommy went off - our shape completely disappeared we were totally rudderless from then on, at one point French flung the ball to Mago who had just driven it up and was not expecting it and was stood still and got clobbered.

I thought the first 15-20 were reasonably even but Saints ground us down after that and we seemed to panic at times and try miracle plays instead of trying to build play. Our kicking game (never our strongest area) was especially poor and our backline was completely disjointed. We should drop the idea of playing second rows at centre for good please, give Halsall a run there but we know that will not happen. Bateman, Farrell and Isa are not centres (neither is Hardaker but that's another story).

In reality Saints should have buried us in the second half.

Doesn’t mean you’d have gone on to win the game though even if it was awarded. We can all find faults with the referee if we micro analyse the game back.

I thought Wigan gave it a real good dig in the first 20 mins and played with a lot of intensity. They just couldn’t keep that up and ultimately I think Saints fitness and conditioning got us over the line.

I haven't watched the game back so this is just an observation or two from the match. I said before the game that, in order to win and considering the numbers missing from the three quarter line, we'd need a season's best from 1-17. Not one player was even close to that. Now had that been down to Saints not allowing them to play to their best, that would have been a disaster for our season but that wasn't the case. Saints were by far the better side but most of our problems were self inflicted. Saints didn't make Bibby throw the ball round Faz's knees with the tryline begging or Havard to pass to a Saints player after a clean break into broken field. They didn't make Batty run to the sideline or Cust kick aimlessly on the first tackle. They didn't make us squander several two on ones or even throw unnecessary forward passes (even if the last one does stick in the craw a bit considering Lomax's try). Most of all they didn't make Moore's howlers for him.

Saints were comfortable winners, and rightly so. They are currently the better side without question. But Wigan need to be better themselves too. Several Saints players put in season best performances, particularly Tommy Makinson. We didn't. None of ours did. That needs to be reversed come the semi final.

I disagree about the fitness and conditioning. Saints won because they had better players (Lomax and Makinson in particular) and were aided by some woeful Wigan defending (Bibby and French).

We were also the ones threatening to score at the end (and possibly would have done except for yet another unpenalised ball strip). Fitness had little, if anything, to do with it.

Agree with a lot of that Phuzzy but I think the fundamental problem is that quite a few of our squad are not good enough to raise their game when it really matters against quality opposition.

I’m not a particularly good loser so it’s unlikely that I which watch the entire game again but may subject myself to the highlights. My summary of yesterday is great effort for 20 minutes but insufficient power in the three quarters and pack when we needed to kick on. Unfortunately even with a full available squad we would still be the same position.

I’m consoling myself at the moment (I don’t really like thinking this way) that I can see some good foundations in Peet, Field, Havard, KPP, Nicholson, Cust, Mago(maybe) and Farrell.
We are paying a price at the moment for poor management in the previous 3 years compounded by some pretty awful squad management I’d say for a good 6 years.
The good thing is I can see improvement and with the correct signings over the next 3 years I genuinely think we could compete with Saints. The next signings have to be proven players in areas where we are particularly weak eg the three quarters. We have got to get off the treadmill of potential and invest in proven.

I haven’t checked the records but I suspect we have probably beaten Saints twice in the 15 or so games and that trend will continue unless they get a disastrous number of injuries to key players. It’s not what I want to say but I think it’s where we are at the moment. As long as I can see improvement and commitment I’m comparatively happy and as long as next season we buy in some proven talent.

Dunno about that - T-Mak was excellent though and Bell stepped up well.

Your pack was rolled pretty badly again and we have Sironen, Matautia (and Knowles really) to bring back into yesterday’s pack.

Pretty much spot on Itchy. We're at the "could make the final" stage as it stands but it would take a perfect performance on the day to actually win something. That's a massive improvement on last year though and shouldn't be underestimated.

I have a little more optimism than yourself though. We had 4 missing from the three quarters including an X factor player in KPP and our best winger in Marshall. Hardaker isn't a world beater but he is very solid defensively (unlike Bibby yesterday) and brings the ball out well (unlike Bibby yesterday). Miski isn't good enough at this level (on yesterday's performance) so either of Thornley or Hallsall would be an improvement. There is lots of improvement in that backline. In fact, take 4 out of Saints' three quarters and they're poor too.

Then there's Ellis. He brought a lot to our forwards and has been missed in my opinion. Add to that we would have Batty back in the pack once some backs return and our pack overall is improved.

We still haven't found a way to fully integrate
Field and French into the side. If we can, that would make the single biggest game changer for us. There is an "if" there, of course, but it's an "if" that's worth figuring out.

Finally, as I said above, none of our players played anything close to their best. The amount of potential improvement on yesterday's performance is off the scale. I'm backing Peet to get those improvements by season's end.

There's no doubt you're right that it starts with the players who are simply not good enough to command a starting berth. If Peet can bite the bullet there it would go a long way

Between you and Phuzzy I think you’ve nailed it. I’m glad to see there isn’t a meltdown on here or even social media for that matter, though I haven’t checked the bizarre Wigan Warriors Facebook fan group for reasons of maintaining my own sanity.

Lots of improvement to be had, collectively and individually but overall fairly happy with the path we’re on. The next batch of releases/signings are crucial to continuing on that path.

Saints pack is obviously great but made to look even better with how good the early tackle carries from Makinson, Percival and Hurrell are. Very hard to bring down and get quick PTB so the pack is on the front foot.

Miski, French, Bibby couldn’t match them carries.

Agreed. I though Percival was excellent yesterday without getting the plaudits. He’s such a good player with and without the ball.

I haven't seen all your games, of course, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge but has Makinson, Roby and Paasi had better games this season? They've been good but I haven't seen them play better.

We have Ellis, possibly KPP depending on where he plays and Bateman to come back into ours. I also don't think we were "rolled" as you put it. Passi aside, I thought we handled your pack quite well. We are never going to match your yards in the front row as it's not how we play but our back row (where the yards normally do come from) was ineffectual with Isa and a misfiring Farrell. The backs were ultimately the difference. Makinson's 200 plus yards is testament to that.

This was a good trait of Wane's Wigan teams - three quarters all had to work hard out of their own end. Players like Gelling and Davies never got the plaudits for the donkey work they did, even Sarginson used to put up some strong numbers from the work done early in sets.

It sounds like I'm talking after the event and I know there was a weird situation back when Wigan had the four good wingers but Davies is a massive asset for this reason and I would have kept him before the others. I think he will start for England in the World Cup.

Fair enough - agree to disagree on that as I thought there was a gulf between the packs and has been most of the time in recent matches.