Sarge needs to watch endless clips of George Carmont and see what a truly great winger does and doesn't do.

I guarantee I will be tapping at this keyboard in 2 months time frustrated at the lack of passes our winger gets - mark my words!

This is so pessimistic. Wigan have addressed the issues with rearranging positioning, bringing in a kicking coach etc, this is evidence based, from this I have hope. What more do you want at this stage? For one I'm pleased we've addressed issues. Like I said, big season for Wane. If he doesn't perform as a head coach it's possible it could be his last.

Debatable. When a team is totally lead around the field by an 'off the cuff' creative half, the team becomes dependent on their creativity to make things happen, when they're injured and replace the whole team looks completely different as they've been dependent on that one player, the old school 7.

Now with structures, a team and the halves play to to the structure meaning there's less impact on losing a star half.

A good argument case study would be Castleford with Rangi v Cas without Rangi. They were often dependent on flashes of his individual skill and flair to breakdown the defence. Now they play much more structured and are a far better team.

It's not pessimistic, it's waiting for evidence that things are actually going to change on the field. Given the season hasn't even started yet we don't know if the changes being made will actually address the issues - if not done correctly they could make things worse.

Like I said (on more than one occasion) no one knows how things will pan out. I hope we sort things out and win every game and every trophy on offer but I'm not going to be a happy clapper or doom monger at this stage.

The split half’s thing is an interesting one and not as clear cut as many seem to think. It only really applies when the PTM is somewhere near the middle of the pitch, in that situation having a half back on each side gives the team an option of which way to go and means the defence is unsure of which way the ball goes. If the PTB is on either edge then the half’s line up together just as they did in 1985. In reality it’s not too much different to how it’s always been.

Are you not happy Wigan have been proactive to address the problems? What more can they possibly do at this stage?

More to the point the FB is now the second receiver who links up outside (on either left or right side) outside of the half back.

I think the positional names throw people off. Really they should be called something like:

FB= Deep lying second receiver
Winger= still pretty apt
centres=outside edges (only in union do they play in the centre)
Prop/13=Middles (props hardly prop up the scrum anymore)
Hooker=dummy half (do they ever hook for the ball?)
SR=Edges (a scrum is made up of whoever, they don't specifically need to be in the SR of a scrum)
scrum half/stand off=left and right halfback

something like that.

Ah I see we're getting to the straw man part of the discussion. Where have I said I wasn't happy? I've simply identified a number of issues, I and a number of other fans saw as problems on the field last season and things that happened during the off season. Let's see if Wane has sorted them out.

You're clearly unhappy to list several issues you have.

And as I replied, all your issues have been addressed in pre-season. I don't see what else you'd want or expect at this stage. I'm happy issues have been addressed. At this stage all Wigan and Wane can do is be proactive, to identity then address the issues which they have.

You're happy issues have been addressed without knowing if the issues have actually been addressed.

I'll wait to see a number of games (probably 10 or so) before deciding.

I can't see that there's any real argument with this.

I've been accused of being a happy-clapper in the past, but I wasn't in that category at the end of last year. We are all fans, and we will attend games loyally, but we do have a right to be critical if things are going sideways, and that certainly was the impression many of us were left in at the end of 2017. More to the point, while we can't possibly know which issues have and haven't been addressed in training, there's no denying that it's the same team who messed up so badly last year, and the same coaching staff.

I don't think it's an OTT reaction to reserve judgement until we've got a few wins on the board.

WANE OUT!!!! Just thought i would get that one in early..

It does seem people are going overboard with the performance at Leigh,lets be fair we won't know if the issues have been addressed for a good while yetis I'll join you in waiting a good few games and see how things are then, not off the back of a friendly.

And how is that any different from what anyone else us saying? In 10 games time we'll all have a clearer picture of whether they've been addressed in full, part or not at all. It doesn't take some kind of special ability to work that one out. It'll be there for all to see Not really sure what the point is you're making. I'll tell you at the end of the season if we've won any trophies or not. I'm guessing you won't need me to tell you though.

I fully agree we need to wait until at least a couple of months in to the season to see which problems have and haven’t been addressed but all clubs could make a list of 4 or 5 things that need attention. Even if we’re going well in mid season we could still probably list a number of things that could be improved.

It’s all on attitude, effort and spirit for me. We have the talent in the side to win things but the players looked bored and disinterested last year at times. The main thing I took from the Leigh game was that the spirit looked excellent and the players looked happy to be back out there.