Classy..

Found something on Andy Flower now just wondering when the book is out. And did he knock him out. Can not wait to get the book.

rlhttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/07/kevin-pietersen-andy-flower-england-cricketrl

Flower looks mentally shot to me. He looks like he thinks all eyes are on him and he's playing with zero aggression.

It was always the danger I suppose that he would go in to his shell. He looks in need of a few weeks off to me.

Is it just me it does he look to have lost a lot of muscle? He looked tiny on Thursday.

To a certain degree i agree with you.

But tbh all our props bar Clubb and TT look very poor this season. And we are talking about Mossop, Flower and Crosby who have been exceptional.

TT makes yards but has off loads too much and makes mistakes and Clubb used to be a centre so that might explain why he is the stand out as Wane is using our centre as main ball carriers instead of the props.

Probably not a popular opinion but I think we need to make a decision on Flower's future. I know he owes us massively and Wane is always going to stick by him but he's a shadow of the player that he was a year/18 months ago and I doubt he will ever return to that form. I would rather cut our losses now rather than carry him for another couple of years still hoping he'll get over what happened.

From personal experience the only person who can sort is himself.
He will need support but ultimately he needs self will to get himself through this.
If it is too much him he should retire. That sounds like an unemotional statement but in fact it is the complete opposite.
It sounds daft but what could help him is a bit of ruck to get it out of his system.
Whatever he decides I hope it is the best for him and his family. He is one of my favourite players and from what I have heard from people who have met him he is a very genuine and likeable guy.
To be fair to him his current form is understandable if not unexpected and he is a million miles away from Mossop, Crosby, Tomkins, Patrick and SOL who should be to put it bluntly pretty ashamed of what they have delivered this season. I exclude Tautai from the list because at least he will give it go and keep looking for work unlike the others.
I include SOL who is my favourite player because he is the leader on the pitch therefore, the responsibility of galvanising the team when things are going wrong rests with him.
I include Tomkins because he huffs and he puffs but he never puts anyone down. He does lots of talking but not once have I seen him put someone on their .

Obviously I haven't seen the Simms incident and so can't comment on it other than to say, if he's guilty of an offence I hope he gets what he deserves. But your comment about "synthetic outrage" in relation to the Flowers' incident, does you no credit. Your club and the player handled the fall out from that incident with some dignity. It was a stupid and shocking attack, especially the second punch on the ground and I doubt the outrage at the time was synthetic. That said, Flower has served his penalty and doesn't deserve to have the incident raked up every time a Wigan player is the recipient of alleged foul play. Move on.

Maybe it's not just Flower who is affected by the perception that if there is retaliation they will be hauled over the coals?

If the Wigan forwards are think they are under the spotlight (whether they are or not in reality) they aren't going to rush in and smack someone like Simms regardless of what he did.

Also if the club has banned retaliation as some form of PR exercise they have basically cut the balls off the forwards.

And before anyone says I am condoning violence when I mention retaliation I don't mean poleaxing players as a matter of course over nothing but what most fans would actually like to see happen if their team's halfback got punched on the ground.

Maybe I am clutching at straws and the lack of aggression isn't due to any club directive or fear of disciplinary retribution and they really have become a powder puff pack but I hope not.

You're right, and so all similar attacks must be judged in the same way from now on. I await Simms's punishment with interest.

I don't think we've thrown a punch all year from memory and that in itself is worrying. There's been push and shove, ball throwing and even weird eskimo style nose running between John Bateman and Terry Campese at their place but we look scared to death of stepping out of line.

It's not a case of being thuggish but Rugby league is the ultimate game of aggression and intimidation and you can't be seen to not stand your ground. I'm not saying we go out and belt people for no reason but taking that Sims incident from Thursday, he wouldn't have got away with that 12 months back!

A game sticks in my memory that highlights the difference in us this year compared to last and that's the Magic game at the Etihad against Leeds. We went in as underdogs with plenty of injuries but we gave it to them (legally) and they didn't like it. When they came at us we went back at them and nobody have an inch.

I'd be playing that in video sessions all week and use that as the standard.

Spot on DaveO

Surely if players know it's an automatic red card for any punch (and the NRL is the same), they won't do it? And this applies to all teams, so there's no reason it should be hobbling Wigan any more than any other side.

Whether we think the automatic red thing is a good idea or not is another matter, but it shouldn't restrict us anymore than anyone else.

As I said in my original post



My point was the outrage about the GF incident wasn't synthetic as you said it was. I can't comment on the incident with Simms, beyond what I've said because I didn't see it.

RL rarely makes national headlines. Frankly the dailies and national news bulletins couldn't care less about it. We barely exist to them. In which case, for them to give such coverage to a foul and speak about it in such disgusted terms was HIGHLY synthetic. But I'm not just talking about that, I'm drawing a comparison between that very fake reaction to the Flower incident and the near non-existent reaction to the Williams incident - I don't think Wiggie and Slaphead even mentioned it. But as you say, you didn't see that and so can't comment. In which case, best to leave it there, eh?