They could be better but as Wigan showed in 2010 fitness is key. That team were almost the same as the team that won nothing under Noble. Organisation and fitness won that league for Wigan.

However, if the team you mentioned were in their prime and playing now with the current fitness and organisation we have at Wigan you're right it would probably beat the current team as well as every other team.

The scary thing is how far your team has fallen since the times when Long and KC were in their prime that team in their prime today would take your current team to the cleaners but that's not where we are fitness and organisation is key now. Wigan have it in spades but the difference Wigan has is it still has a few players that do their own thing and make their own chances. Sam, Mossop, Finch all being that way. And charnley would still get into a squad with all those greats too.

...and, naturally, you're completely missing the point... Noone's arguing fitness and organisation is better now - that has nothing to do with the point...

The point is that basic player quality is in steep decline in SL right now and that[i is [/iincontrovertible fact.

You go kid yourself that Matty Smith is the next Sean Long, Charnley is the reincarnation of Robinson, Carmont would have graced any RL team ever etc. etc. if you like. Personally I'll just live in the real world and get fed up that Saints' current squad, despite being a hollow shell of 5/10 years ago in any vague measure of quality, is still in real terms at about the same level of competitiveness. That simple fact says all that needs saying.

....and yet we're still in the same position in the league with the same chance of winning silverware every season with the same level of competitiveness against the teams there are around us now as then.

Thanks for proving my point for me

There's a[i big [/idifference - there are many, many brilliant individual football players still being produced all around the world and many of the current Spain squad would have walked into that Brazil team on basic talent and ability with or without current fitness levels and professionalism. The difference in SL is that the brilliant, exciting individual players produced in the British game of 10/20 years just simply aren't there any more, and fitness and organisation is no substitute...

The double [imight[/i be a bit tricky now But we've as good a chance of winning the Grand Final at this stage of the season as we have had at the same point in pretty much any previous SL season bar 2006 most certainly. And that's just plain sad given how many glaring holes and deficiencies we have at the moment, but it is the truth and speaks volumes for how **** the rest of the league is.

But in [icomparative [/iterms we're.... Oh sod it... Just go bang your head against a wall for me and come back when you get it - saves me a job...

calm down dear.

humour me a minute, but at any point in your life when you were growing up, did your dad/anyone else feed you a 'they're not as good as they used to be' line, to describe anything from food to beer to music to sports players to politicians to cars to films etc etc? this seems to be exactly what you're doing.

There, you humoured me, now I'll humour you. The Wigan team of ten years ago was far from a great team. In fact, the Wigan team of 15 years ago was also far from a great team (yes they won a SL) but I'd be thinking more than twice before naming the likes of florimo, moore, reber, cassidy (as a hooker), goldspink, tony smith, holgate, mark smith, jon clarke ahead of any of our starting team now. we've had great individuals such as faz, rads, connolly, paul, newton, renouf, robinson, dallas etc but as a team I think this one is more rounded. thats just my opinion.

Now if you'd like to go back 20 years (not sure if saints fans go back that far???? ya know, before sl...) then yeah we are entering the territory of that wigan team and that national team (mostly wigans team) were the business. However, the 20 years since (when according to your theory it was never as good) never stopped you lot from crowing about how super the wooper dooper saints team were, and bragging about back to back this that and the other? And when we turned sides out at your place to get a good stuffing we didnt turn round and say, well actually, all of rl is crap...we went home, had a beer, kicked the dog and got on with it.

The problem with your theory is that there's always someone older who will take you even further back to a time when, shock horror, we beat the aussies. They will scoff at names like hanley, edwards, gregory x2 etc and say its a sign of the times when we have to have an organiser (edwards) as a gb half back when we used to have the real deal (murphy) or we are stuck with a quick man who cant tackle on the wing (offiah) when we had the blockbuster himself (boston)

the point is using individual player comparisons to back up your theory doesnt work. matty smith isnt as good as trent barrett (i wish) but this wigan team would stick some serious points on that millward side.

Interesting way to prove 'incontrovertible fact' by citing and laughing at things I never said.

For what it's worth, I actually agree with you that, overall, standards are dropping - for various reasons - but they had dropped in the era you're talking about compared to the earlier era of Hanley, Lydon, Gregory etc. Yet funnily enough, we didn't get too many complaints from St Helens fans about that.

You are trying to state as FACT, and argument that is as old as time itself. All sport, and life changes, and to compare one generation against another is just silly. Maybe with todays fitness levels past footballers, rugby players, snooker players, tennis players would have been able to compete with their modern conterparts. But its a very difficult thing to prove, or base an argument on. Many past footballers, rugby players and tennis players would have just been too small, and lacking in power. Steve Davis once said of younger players "They have spent their lives watching hours of snooker on the TV to see have to compose breaks", this was not a complaint, just an observation. He only had one frame a week of top players on Pot Black.

I think our present team, with its greater fitness and organisation would beat our great team of Hanley, Edwards Et al, but it would not be pretty, and nowhere near as entertaining as those games were back then. If you watch those old games of rugby, or football, players had lots of time on the ball, and lots of space. They would not get that now. Whether they would have the mythical skill to excape these situations with there old levels of fitness, thats doubtful. there is great skill in the game today, you just happen to be watching the wrong team.

But to imply as you do, that things are cut and dried is just silly.

I dont think Smith did anything outstanding but he didnt let us down either... He could be a very vital part of our run in in the league.