Correct, as I have just said, the 2 teams in the Grand Final deserve to be at Old Trafford, no excuses, some of our own fans really crack me up, this thread wouldn't exist if it was us that had finished 5th and got to OT, and if it did exist it would read "What a fantastic achievement"

Finally

I have stuck up for Saints & Leeds in this thread repeatadly so you'll see I'm not totally biased towards Wigan so here goes!

I watched the Lomax one about 4 times and couldn't see what the Hoo ha was about? He tackled Lomax slightly from the side and from behind and because of the angle he only had hold of the ankle and was trying to keep hold to stop Lomax slipping out of the tackle. Nothing in it.

The Coley one I'll agree it was an "Average" shot to say the least, certainly in the current climate because he threw himself into the tackle. If he had stayed on his feet when going in I would say nowt in it but he did dive into it so for me not a great one.

So presumably if you had won the 2007 GF Eliminator none of you would have gone to OT in protest that you finished 6th in the table?

Grow a pair!

It comes down to how some Wigan fans have this holier than thou, paragons of virtue "do you know who we are" Liverpool FC style aloof, misplaced, arrogance. Sure it's not all, but if you ask the fans of most clubs, many will likely concur that it sticks in the craw somewhat. For that reason and because Saints deserved it without doubt, I am glad the final has manifested how it has. Not to mention the ass clown that is Phil Clarke nearly beating one off every time Wigan do anything of quality. Sickly doesn't even cover it.

For me, the play-offs of 2011 have completely mitigated why they work. The quality of games has been absolutely outstanding. I wouldn't wish to change that in the slightest.

Did you watch Catalans v Hull KR? Wire v Hudds? Lop-sided affairs that I have desire to see asgain. The final eliminators this weekend were high calibre exciting games yes but they were the omly ones in this seasons playoffs I think. There aren't enough good quality teams to justify a top 8 system IMO and the results before last weekend reflect this

I have every desire to see lots of tries. It's what we have demanded as a sport, as spectators, as viewers for years. I wouldn't wish to rid any sport of 'lesser quality' teams to fit a foot stamping preference

Every team in the 8 has the ability to beat any other team. Hull, Hudds, KR, Catalans have proven repeatedly they can beat any of the top sides. That they didn't in the play-off's is simply sport. Moreover it's about keeping teams, fans and viewers interested as long as possible with the "any given Sunday" view - and it's a commercial decision.

What is clear is that actually, all this 'change the play off's" is a nonsense and a knee jerk to a loss. This wouldn't be taking place in the slightest had certain teams got to OT. Moreover there would be some royal back slapping taking place if Wire or Wigan had got to OT from 3rd or 5th. And rightly so.

So you found those games entertaining? My point is that going into the playoffs there were only ever 4-5 teams with a realistic chance of making it to the Grand Final, so why bother with a Top 8?

For the very reasons I outlined in the last post. Sky TV, commercial reasons and to maintain interest for as many teams as possible. It's really not that complicated.

Nor has anybody presented a logical alternative that would satisfy all that key criteria. And why is it suddenly become the most important issue in Rugby League?

So why no mention of the 8 page thread on Wolfs.com then? The same things are being debated? Why not?
I'm guessing it's because the things some fans of other teams bring up about Wigan actually say more about the individual themselves than the subject being debated!
They can all say oh it's just Wigan being paranoid again but in truth the reaction to a Wigan incident is magnified far more than with some other clubs.
As a Leeds Fan I'm sure you've experienced the same issue with fans of other Yorkshire clubs?

Truth is there are fans of clubs who state they hate Wigan for various "Reasons" such as
I hate you becasue you broke the "Spirit" of the cap
I hate you because you cheat
I hate you because your a dirty team
I hate you because you were the only full time team in the 80's/90's (A particular favourite of many Wigan fans)
I hate you because your fans are arrogant

There's only one truth, they Hate Wigan Full stop and I don't have a problem with that, I jsut don't get fooled by the peple who try and magnify certain comments by certain odd individuals to make out that ALL Wigan fans are "Insert despicable name calling word" to justify their own jealousy and hatred of Wigan.

I have read a number of threads in the last day or so calling Michael Maguire things such as Horrible, despicable, etc etc!
How on earth is that acceptable? Same thing with Tomkins etc?

As I say it says more about the individual writing these remarks than it doeas about the person receiving these comments.

The irony is, in replying to a post outlining the fact that all Wigan fans get lumped in with those who are saying Leeds and Saints don't deserve to be in the GF (they do, without doubt), you've defended it by saying that some Wigan fans' have a "holier than thou attitude", therefore fans of other teams dislike Wigan fans as a whole, even describing it as a reason why you're glad it's a Saints and Leeds final.

Interesting. Since I'm not a Leeds fan, far from it. I do however recognise their accomplishment and quality in reaching OT.

Nor have I the desire to hate Wigan or any individual or club; that's simply futile. I dislike certain clubs more than others, as with players - that's the very theatre and pantomime of sport.

Again, why has this whole route to OT become the most single important issue in the game? It's a complete smokescreen and disrespectful to both Saints and Leeds. That, is plain wrong.

It was a caricature of the constant whingeing on Wigan's tackling technique, not a line by line of your trolling post. Would have thought that was obvious, but clearly not.

But then that would simply mean you had posted a hugely inaccurate and futile response.

Or, re-visit this: "You could try reading again what was written about specifically Lima's incident with Lomax, which was horrendous, Hoffman's repeated high shots and Tommy L's continuing theme." A critique of specific incidents and players isn't trolling merely because you don't like it. Bad luck