Hill I’d put ahead of Mago going forward. I thought he did really well on Friday and should’ve done more minutes. Some of the defensive efforts from Mago were diabolical. I’d rather rotate that last bench spot between Hill and Nsemba and stop flogging the dead horse that is Mago. He had an improved run going in to Friday but you just can’t trust him when it matters the most.

Who does KPP replace?

I’m unsure as to why Hill is doing such short stints. Fitness level? Coach protecting him? Coach not trusting him?
Why did we sign Mago? Another nrl signing whose fitness levels are almost non existent.
Not sure what you mean Phuzzy by proper rotation. 20 minutes spells or longer when we have injuries? Ellis I suspect could do longer minutes from the get go but does them now to cover Mago.

We could have refused Bateman’s transfer. Obviously having a disgruntled player in the squad is bad but sometimes you have to make a statement.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you re: retention and recruitment Itchy. My post actually agrees with this. It's the fact that the incoming aren't even close to replacing the unavailable ones that makes the problem more than one of pure numbers. To put it more simply, you could have 5 players out but if the 5 replacements are equally as good then the numbers out are of little consequence.

Take the Wire 11 props missing (just joking) as an example of what I mean. It's not really a loss if you have Dudson missing but Bullock replacing him. Or in our own case (the stand off issue notwithstanding) if Field is replaced by French at fullback.

Our problem in the pack is that those out have no direct (or even acceptable) replacements.

KPP would be a starter instead of Isa in your examples or would have replaced a bench player if Isa starts.

I'm not entirely sure why you would object to a backrower on the bench with a prop rotation of Havard, Ellis, Cooper and Byrne? It's something we have traditionally done with a full compliment of first choice front rowers and someone who can "change a game" from the bench is usually regarded as a good thing. Why would we need to play Isa at prop? I don't understand. That 4 could comfortably cover the full 80 minutes between them without the need for anyone to do long minutes.

The rest I agree with.

Injuries and squad rotation is why we need an extra prop, also for certain games we could play Ellis or Cooper at 13 as an extra prop. Could play Havard in the back row to bulk up the pack.

I can't understand why we seem obsessed with project or second string NRL players, other clubs bring in experienced NRL players - something we are crying out for - it is so obvious especially with Cooper being out long term and there being a question mark over him returning - I hope he does but it is a serious injury at his age. Other clubs even seem to be able to find decent players in the Championship who go on to have top careers.

Looking at the recruitment we have had over many, many years from the NRL in the forwards so few have turned out to be good signings - for every decent one we have five or six duds - something is clearly wrong in the recruitment policy.

I’m not against having a back rower on the bench but over recent years, injuries permitting,I think we tend to have a hooker and 3 props on the bench as we did on Friday. Havard only does long minutes when we have players missing. Peet seems to be in the SW mold of rotating props every 20 minutes

I disagree. We more often have a backrower/utility than an extra prop, particularly when we're at or near full strength. I agree regarding Havard, although I'm not sure how that doesn't agree with what I said earlier regarding the effect the replacements have on prop rotation.

We do seem to end up with a lot of props in their early or mid-twenties. Even when we had the likes of Flower and Clubb a few years ago they were kept at the club for too long and missed so many games we were relying mostly on younger props. It seems like very few promising forwards (particularly props) reach a high level until around the age of 27/28. Below that age there are a lot of inconsistent props. If most of our forwards are in that age bracket it's hardly surprising if we have an inconsistent pack.

It's also notable that most Grand Final winning sides have contained several props over the age of 30. Experienced packs tend to be stronger packs but if we're recruiting props in their early 20's we're likely to be waiting around for them to come good.

It's not an exact science by any means. Recruiting props does seem to be difficult and a lot of teams end up signing duds. Take Warrington signing Robbie Mulhern as an example. He did seem like a promising forward at Hull KR. It didn't work out at Wire and they let him leave. He's now on fire at Leigh. There are plenty of examples of props who have moved from club to club only to become decent players in their late 20's.

We just don't seem to be able to identify good props, whether from the NRL or UK-based. Looking at our recruitment of props over the last few years it doesn't make for impressive reading:

2015
Taulima Tautai, Larne Patrick (Loan), Lee Mossop

2016
Frank-Paul Nu’uausala (June)

2017
Romain Navarrete

2018
Gabriel Hamlin

2019
Joe Bullock

2020
George Burgess, Mitch Clark, Brad Singleton

2021
None

2022
Kaide Ellis, Patrick Mago, Ramon Silva, Mike Cooper (July)

2023
None

To be fair the two best signings have probably been the most recent ones (Ellis and Cooper), though Cooper maybe doesn't count as smart recruitment given it was Wire who asked us to sign him.

We as a club cannot scout props, I reckon someone is looking at highlights reels and basing the props on them alone or they’re after another Feka, or an intimidating hard knock to act hard all game or something rather than a workhorse. I do think we have got lucky with Ellis rather than good scouting because his stats were terrible in the NRL, they’ve improved here because I think someone like Ellis will want to improve their game whereas someone like Mago goes through the motions and does whatever little he can get away with.

Depending on what’s happening with Coopers injury and next season whether he will be here or not should prompt the powers that be to take action. So if he isn’t here next year get him off the books, get rid of Mago asap on loan for the rest of the season and bring in a short term replacement from the NRL.

the quote isn't working this morning, but this

'I can't understand why we seem obsessed with project or second string NRL players, other clubs bring in experienced NRL players'

its interesting as there's a lot of minds on our board, who cite wigan getting joy out of project nrl players, rather than whatever we sign and should follow your recruitment model.

it does seem that on both sides, the grass is always greener.

cant believe nobody is discussing Singleton, - he's absolute gash

seems like Mago gets all the stick, which he deserves, just give Singleton his fair share too....

Completely agree on Singleton, brings absolutely nothing. Hopefully both him and Mago are off at the end of the season and we are bringing in 2 props that actually have size that can push this team forward. I am disappointed with Byrne too this season, he seems way off it compared to last year. Does anyone know if he's carrying an injury maybe?
We're crying out for a second rower too. Say what you want about Bateman, but he always made metres and we are missing that aspect of his game so much.

manual quote
"the quote isn't working this morning, but this

'I can't understand why we seem obsessed with project or second string NRL players, other clubs bring in experienced NRL players'

its interesting as there's a lot of minds on our board, who cite wigan getting joy out of project nrl players, rather than whatever we sign and should follow your recruitment model.

it does seem that on both sides, the grass is always greener. "

that initial line was mine - and I referring specially to forwards (props) we have done ok with backs, well mostly, but our recruitment of forwards (as cheery.pie illustrated in the post after mine) has been poor - for several years we have been deperate for an experienced battle hardened prop and not project/second string props who almost invariably have been disappointing. Not so much grass being greener but more like being on the wrong lawn altogether!