Dare I say that Joel was possibly a better player than Hock?

As you said raw pace mixed with that Tomkins agility, power and handling means for me he has more attributes than Hock.

Both are fine players tho and for me Joel was our next 13 and skipper.

Joel was immense last season, and while we have not felt the loss as much as feared due to Goulding stepping up.

Who can forget his CC try, which won us the match and his try vs the exiles, neither of which Goulding would have scored.

I too saw him as the natural replacement for SOL, but who knows he may be back?

I certainty hope so.

How is Joel doing in yawnion? This may sound rough but I would hope not so brilliantly so that he might see the grass wasnt so greener maybe.

Of course, seeing his brother(s) lift trophys may help that cause as well.

Joel was far from being "immense" last season.

He was decent in an unfamiliar position and scored a couple of fantastic try's, but in no way he was "immense"

The thing people need to be careful of is getting carried away, this year and its signings are going better than anybody could imagine, this season we will lose Carmont, Tommy, Lima and in all likelihood Finch (and Roberts), without any question that presents a huge amount of problems for the management team and they really need to get our signings right, otherwise, we will quickly drop back into the back, we are losing 4 of the best players in SL this time.

Definitely. We don't need Joel back. Our back 3 is perfect as it is and Farrell/Hughes are good replacements.

scored on his debut and hardly played since...not even making the bench most of the time.
he must be either
1. rubbing his hands about getting paid for doing nothing
2. frustrated

my monies on 2

I thought Joel had pretty much accepted that he would spend what was left of the season playing for the second string side and playing a few games in the LV Cup. Wasn't it stated that he wanted to learn the game and his role first rather than being thrown right in like other converts have been?

so its option 1 ?

What people tend to forget when discussing topics like this is that, just because a player is a better player they don't necessarily make the team a better team. Hoffman is, without doubt, an excellent player but the team, especially the pack, are functioning at close to perfection at them moment. How much better could it get? To put Hoffman into the team you would have to take someone else out and, in my opinion, that could very well result in a nett loss. Who knows?

Excellent point, I was only thinking about Hoffman's leaving yesterday morning. No doubting Hoffmans talent, and there is equally no doubting the strength of this team. In 1966 Jack Charlton asked Alf Ramsey why he, Jack Charlton, was in the team. Ramsey said words to the effect of "i play to a system, and that does not mean i necessarily play the best players". Great psychology. Its a team game, very talented individuals help of course, but one man can't take on a team. IL should take great credit for the management team he has put together, thats where our strength lies at the moment.

Would you want him back though? The problem being the player we lost would be different to the player he will become playing union. Massive risk taking players back from Union IMO - At best his skill set, athletisism, and fitness will stagnate, if not go backwards, to the point where he is no longer the player he was at wigan.

If he did come back he may never be the player he was, or it could take him anything up to 2 years to get back to where he was! Look at Lee Smith/ Karl Pryce/ Chev Walker etc for perfect examples!

This was part of the sadness for me of him going - Not only losing a W.C player we had, but also knowing that he will be such a terrible waste of talent playing a game where he is likely to only see the ball 3 times a game!

Joel would compliment this current side as a second rower and cover for centre. He's a fantastic tackler and athlete, however he was prone to massive brain farts such as the pass he made over the try line in CC semi against Stains and the constant penalties conceded acting as "big Brother" to Sam. Some of Wigans current success is down to discipline and not giving away cheap yards. Wane has Hock counting to 10 nowadays (except for Stains matches) so maybe he could iron out these problems that exist with Joel (even Sam has his moments).
It would be interesting if IL was asked today who he regrets losing- if Joels name would be mentioned?
That try at wembley and the home match against Wakey (when Roberts bust his knee) where he ran the full length without breaking sweat are reasons he would fit in this side. A massive counter puncher with top rate speed. Similar to Lee Gilmore and look at the length of his career. These athletes last a long time and always deliver