I have never said I do know it's the sole cause!!!! I've said its my opinion. What is it about that very simple thing that you are failing to comprehend? You are getting two principles mixed up here and we are going round in circles.

I'll keep it very simple.

I know it is a fact that he has retired because of the symptoms. It's not an opinion, it is fact. Therefore, I know that people are falsely accusing him and the club of lying. They are doing this without anything whatsoever to support the claim; they are simply throwing theories out there to discredit Hohaia and/or Saints.

Secondly, it is only my opinion that the Flower punch is the likely cause of these symptoms. That opinion is based on what I've been told about his symptoms and the initial diagnosis.

Surely you can see the difference? I have an opinion based on facts. Others are creating their own theories based on nothing.

I really couldn't make it more simple for you.

In that case tell me what about his symptoms lead you to this conclusion. The reason I ask that is because there is NO diagnosis that could conclude this. It is simply impossible to tell except post mortem. As I say, I am speaking from personal experience of a very similar court case here so I know this not to be true both legally and medically. Sorry to call you out publicly on this but you are now trying to argue what I know to be, shall we say, untruths and passing them off as fact.

Unless you can offer me evidence to the contrary (and I know you can't) then I'm afraid which ever way you dress this up, your conclusion that Flower is the likely cause of his symptoms is based on nothing but your own opinion.

Incidentally, I say sole reason because that is the implication of what you are saying. Nowhere have you said anything otherwise. You put it firmly at the door of Flower.

Wow. That bit in bold is complete and utter nonsense and I suspect you know it. You are either really struggling with the whole fact and opinion concept or you are trying to make me out to be a liar. If it's the latter then it's a poor attempt because I have been very clear with my thoughts on this and at no point have I claimed any untruths to be facts. I am not trying to pass it off as fact that Flower's punch has caused Hohaia's symptoms. I have made that extremely clear on several occasions and yet you keep putting words into my mouth. Just for clarity

There is not a cat in hell's chance that I am going public with information given to me on a matter such as this. I don't go public with signings and team news so I certainly won't be doing it with this. I haven't claimed there is evidence that proves anything, I have simply said I have an opinion which is strengthened by information I have been given.



Really, I have to explain this again?? I am not implying anything. I am being very clear and boldly stating that IN MY OPINION, the likely cause if Hohaia's symptoms is Flower's punch. It is not an implication, nor is it a declaration of fact, it is an opinion.

This is so boring.

Has been on mine for 4/5 months...

You're right, it is. I am sick of having to repeat myself.

Then don't. Nobody is making you.

There is nothing you have been told that would allow you to draw the conclusion you have. Nothing. Saying that you are privy to information that does is presenting untruths as fact. I did not put words in your mouth. They are your own: "That opinion is based on what I've been told about his symptoms and the initial diagnosis."

I am fully aware that it is just your opinion. Did you somehow miss the numerous times I posted exactly that? If so I'll assume you have trouble reading or, more likely, are choosing to ignore it. That it is 'just your opinion' is exactly the point I have been making throughout this. It is no better or worse than anyone else's made up opinion.

As I said in the original post; if you choose to include your own posts in the "15 pages of bitterness, lies and accusations" then I have no issue with it.

I'm not making you out to be a liar at all. All I'm saying is your 'opinion' on this incident is just that. An opinion. I cannot for the life of me see how it is somehow immune from the same criticisms as the ones you are complaining about. It's made up and, at the time of writing at least, based on nothing but hearsay and supposition. It isn't elevated just because it's your made up opinion!

Anyway, I have no desire for a slanging match either. As you say, it's run it's course. Just for the record though, you can't repeatedly say that it is Flower's fault and then claim that you never said it was 100% his fault. This is being disingenuous. You would have had to say at some point that you thought he was 'partially at fault' or similar for this to wash.

I can't believe we are going over this again but having an opinion doesn't mean you are 100% certain. I don't understand how you can't understand that. I'm not being disingenuous and I'm not backtracking. It's my opinion that Flower's punch is the most likely cause but I'm not 100% certain; nobody is. Why can't you just accept that?

I can assure you my opinion is not just made up or based on hearsay. As I said earlier, people on here are aware that I regularly have info on the club long before it goes public.

Wigan fans accusing Saints of lying to get Hohaia off the salary cap are doing so for the same petty points scoring agenda that you've accused me of in the past. These aren't credible rumours or suggestions. I suspect you know that but you're pressing with the technicality of "their opinion is as valid as yours" even though we both know that in this instance it isn't.

Surely we can get this to 20 pages....

Can't believe this argument has gone on for three pages when you both agree. You both agree that it is currently an opinion and not a medical fact that Hohaia's retirement is caused by Ben Flower.