Origin has prestige with the players, putting 50 past a half baked France side doesn’t.

Saints culture is oft cited as one of the main reasons why we haven’t been completely gutted by the NRL (yet), and the double edge sword of having Saints players buy into that culture is this; them pulling out of games they see as contrary to their aim. Make the fixture more important and you wouldn’t see Saints players pull out.

All that being said, on form only Lees deserves to even be in the conversation, and he’s probably one most at risk of sitting it out anyway.

I'm sorry FTV but that's BS as far as I'm concerned. Dodd is carrying an injury but put in 80 mins for Saints just 2 days ago? So it's serious enough to pull out of the International but not serious enough to stop him playing for Saints? A selective injury then, that only raises its head when...well...it benefits Saints. That's EXACTLY what the criticism is here so you're in effect agreeing. Saying Lomax might not play as if that justifies pulling out too is utterly ridiculous. It's a 40 man squad. The majority will probably not play! That's wholly irrelevant. As for Lees...come on! You're down on props so God forbid it inconveniences Saints! In case you haven't noticed, we are down a similar number of props. Should Harvard pull out? What about Faz and Marshall... clearly carrying knocks. Let's pull Wardle, King and KPP to because it's a long season and they could do with a rest!

Get a grip man! Saints, once again are peeing all over the International game. There's no excuses. You either support club over country or you don't. If you don't, as you say is the case, don't try to excuse Saints' appalling attitude.

For me, none of the players who have pulled out should play International rugby again.

However, I agree counting Knowles, Walmsley etc amongst their number is just nonsense.

Playing for your country should carry prestige regardless of who you're playing.

I'm not having a go at Saints solely here BTW as I say it's gone on for years.

The lad is currently injured and coming back from an Achilles injury. If your point is do players play injured in meaningful games but less so in friendlies then of course the answer is a resounding yes. You are also assuming he’s pulled out without Wane’s knowledge. That may be the case, it may not. He wouldn’t have played so maybe Wane thinks allowing an injured player rest is better than bringing him into a squad for a game he wont play in.

I didn’t say Lomax not playing justifies pulling out. I said him and Lees were the controversial ones but in reality Lomax wouldn’t play. It was more a point that it doesn’t really impact Wane and England.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m a big international RL fan (see my avatar and the cash I’ve spent travelling the world watching England/GB) and o don’t believe in players picking and choosing and o believe being in camp is an important part of building a winning culture and winning team.

As I said earlier two pull outs are two too many. Then again - had the game been England exiles last week nobody would have believed saints withdrawing Walmsley, Paasi, Sironen, Matautia, Makinson, Percival, Knowles etc due to injury but players get injured week to week.

As I said - I think Lomax and Lees are the questionable ones, Dodd is a non-event as he’s playing injured.

Squad announced (15 players selected)

England squad
Matty Ashton, Ben Currie (both Warrington Wolves), Tyler Dupree (Salford Red Devils), Ash Handley (Leeds Rhinos), James Harrison (Warrington Wolves), Ethan Havard (Wigan Warriors), Tom Holroyd (Leeds Rhinos), Toby King (Wigan Warriors), Mikey Lewis, Jez Litten (both Hull KR), Matty Nicholson (Warrington Wolves), Kai Pearce-Paul, Harry Smith, Morgan Smithies (all Wigan Warriors), Josh Thewlis, Danny Walker (both Warrington Wolves), Jake Wardle (Wigan Warriors), Jack Welsby (St Helens), George Williams (Warrington Wolves).

We'll have to agree to differ on Dodd. He's not currently 'injured'. If you're using his not kicking as proof (and I use the term loosely), I'll put the counter argument that he's in all probability not kicking because of his Achilles. He may we'll be 'coming back' from an injury but as far as I'm concerned doing a full 80 is comeback complete. How many full 80s constitute a recovery in your opinion?

No excuse for Lomax and Lees. We agree there, as we do on Knowles etc.

Pointless fixture and initiative.

Much prefer the Wigan lads being on a beach resting up in prep for another tilt at the CC.

The leagues administrators and some of the clubs make International RL pointless, so yeah, it looks pointless in many ways but it shouldn’t be, it should be the complete opposite. The self interest of the NRL, their clubs and now some of our clubs is sickening.

Whilst Lomax is the best British half, for me, he has burnt his bridges and should be no where near representative rugby ever again.
He played virtually all season injured, and between him and Stains decided to get the injury sorted after the GF, totally ing on the World cup and any plans Wane had…..

You can't flog a dead horse imo. England Vs France (even with a full side) is uninspiring & dour to say the least. Been there, beat them and turned the TV off because of it.

I've said it a million times and will continue to say it until I'm blue in the face - the strength of the British game is all about SL and the rivalries of the top club sides. Wigan Vs Saints on GF was as good off the field as anything RL can offer imo. Focus on the club game - build it, remove the dead wood and get people watching that.

It’s a dead horse because it’s made to be just that. We have so much self interest in the game that we may as well pull the plug on internationals. That would be a huge mistake ‘if’ we had people in charge of the game and of its clubs, that could see further than the end of their nose but we don’t, so I’m at a point where I’m getting past caring because it is pointless.

Good Friday was great by the way but outside of 24,000 in the stadium and league fans, who already know about the game, nobody cares less. They didn’t even cover it on the Sky Sports website. If that’s our strength, we’ve got problems longer term sadly (as superb as the day was as a Wiganer).

I think it may also be a case that the RFL fear playing injured players in view of the ongoing case of players taking the RFL to court for lack of consideration for player welfare. It has surprised me how in recent games head tackles have suddenly become less important, judging by citing's at the beginning of the season compared to recent weeks.

Feels like a bit of a nice refresh if I’m honest lots of new names in there which is good to see.

In regards the Saints lads we need to be looking beyond the likes of Lomax and Walmsley due to their age and in Lomax’s case desire to play for England, it’s clearly not something he has much interest in.

Knowles and Lees will be in contention for next WC so disappointing to see them miss out due to injury and suspension.

Welsby is having a bit of a dip like a few others but have earned the right to be picked but Dodd has been poor so far so not worthy of a place.

Faz has a clear desire to play for his country however his age is an issue in my opinion, but as long as he is playing well and putting his hand up he deserves a call.

Lomax doesn’t want to prioritise England and I understand there are reasons for that in regards the coach but he is the past anyway.

Williams and Smith need to be groomed as a partnership during this cycle to see how they click with players like Abdul and Dodd who I’m sure will return to form at some point also being in contention.

There needed to be a change in guard with the England team and I think that is reflected in the selections.

How do you know Lomax doesn't want to play for England?

I have been told by plenty of people close to the England camp that certain individuals within it would prefer it if there wasn’t such a close link between Wigan and England, Lomax being one of them.

His actions last year may not prove that but it’s a clear indication.

Even if it wasn’t true though his time has come and gone. We need to build towards the next World Cup and form key partnerships.

Lomax is s wonderful player but we cannot go into 2025 relying on him, when the reality is under the current coach he has not been reliable.