Middles

Quote: Cherry.Pie "Posted this on the other site but think it's relevant to this. Our problem is the lack of value we get from our experienced forwards, with the exception of Faz and Isa.

Saints pack includes Taia (35), Peyroux (31), LMS (34), Walmsley (30), Amor (32), Paulo (32), Graham (35).

Wire have Hill (32), Cooper (32), Clark (31) all above 30.

The problem for us is we've got Clubb (33), O'Loughlin (37) and Flower (32) who are our established players, top earners, offering absolutely nothing like the sort of quality that the 30+ players at Saints and Wire are. All 3 of those were thrust back into the first team when they were fit (Flower signed a contract under Wane as a guaranteed starter), so presumably are on top 13 wages.

Taia, LMS, Walmsley, Amor, Graham, Hill and Cooper are all 90-to-100 metres+ per game players. They are superb value for their experience. They are the leaders of the team and can carry the responsibility and the good young players at those clubs don't have to flog themselves game after game and carry them.

We've also got Burgess (2icon_cool.gif and Clark (27). Two new signings who should be in their peak years that have so far offered very little.

Farrell and Isa should have plenty of years left at the top of their game but we've got good youngsters waiting in the wings to suggest we've got some cover there. Our problem is mainly down the middle and the absolutely shocking return we're getting for our experienced players compared to other teams.

Our youngsters are good. So many really promising players among there. The problem is they tend to be our best performing players. They tend to be the ones earning their place and then we play them and their flaws get exposed but the established players don't back them up.

Byrne is a good prospect but he shouldn't be playing regularly like he has done for most of this year. It's been highlighted in recent games that his defence is nowhere near up to scratch. The problem is we put in better defenders like Flower and they don't offer the same in terms of carries.

We've got good young forwards but most are lightweight and grafters. Shorrocks has been playing down the middle for us, usually when Farrell is also down the middle meaning one of those two is playing prop. That's madness. They are both smaller than many centres.

In fairness to Lam he identified the need for more size and power down the middle but the signings haven't delivered that, and the youngsters aren't likely to produce that.

On a dry day our lightweight pack and younger players look capable of handling some big sides. Some of that is probably down to outside backs like French, Gildart, Burgess and Hardaker too. In poor conditions when it's a hard slog up the middle we really shouldn't be playing a 95kg loose forward as a prop alongside another 95kg second rower.

There's a lot of value in hard running props but the only player we have who really fits the bill is Bullock. The performance of Kilner against Saints provides some hope but yet again that's us pinning hopes on another youngster.

Our established middles currently aren't good enough and they're a waste of salary cap right now.

In the meantime if Lam could just stop playing Farrell at 13 it would be great. He was a man of steel contender playing left side second row, a real threat with the ball and our best player. He's barely been noticeable since he moved to the middle. Why are we wasting our best player to accommodate Greenwood, who is nowhere near as good. It seems it's because despite his size Greenwood can't play down the middle. Well he shouldn't be picked.'"