The thing that’s getting me at the minute is how we continually bang on about our “world class” youth production line, but yet name a truly world class player it’s produced recently?

I look at Saints with envy to be totally honest. The likes of Makinson, Richardson, Percival, Grace and Thompson all brought through their ranks and looking for all money like some of them may well become world class.

Meanwhile we’ve brought through Burgess, Gildart, Williams, Powell, Davies, Sutton and Marshall who, don’t get me wrong on their day are good but they’re nowhere near the standard of Saints’ academy graduates IMHO.

Apols for going OT slightly and regarding the OP I’m a suckler for big aggressive take no sh*t forwards but I completely agree that the modern prop has to be more than a bully boy. A hybrid would be nice but they’re few and far between these days.

What does Tony clubb weigh in at these days? He looks a big bugger but i found it surprising as a former centre he ended up as a prop

Hold on a second. Makinson is a good player but he wasn't as good as Burgess when he was in form, hence why Budgie was generally favoured for the England side. We produced Manfredi who was the best English winger until getting cruelly injured. And Davies isn't far behind Makinson even though he's only been professional for a couple of years. Grace is no better than Marshall - flashy, exciting, occasionally a bit of a liability. Davies is definitely better than Grace.
Richardson is having a cracking breakthrough year but he looks no better than Williams did at the same age. His progression in the next few years will be telling.
Percival is a cracking talent, best young English centre but the second best is probably Gildart and there's not a huge difference between them when they're both on form. Gildart is playing better now his future has been sorted.
And I'd say Thompson isn't massively better than Sutton but simply plays in a side that uses their props a lot more effectively. Sutton seems to have a little bit more about him in terms of handling ability (although I haven't seen as much of Thompson so could be wrong).

I really can't understand the negativity you have towards our academy products given the ones you mention either aren't better or are only slightly better.

Ever heard of Ruben Wiki?

Saved me a load of typing, thanks. My thoughts exactly.

Cherry and white specs on hits a new high. Manfredi the best English winger? Over Hall? Makinson is clearly head and shoulders over Davies, however given time he could be similar (if he has regular ball and a good centre). Marshall? Please don't get me started. Another error filled game, highlight was Charnley looking at him keeping him at arms length as he desperately was trying to do something.

That's funny because just a fortnight ago Marshall rinsed Charnley for 80 minutes.

Could you post which markers you're using to support your view that Makinson is "head and shoulders" above Davies? Last time I looked Davies was leading Makinson on most stats although if that has significantly changed to a point where Makinson's are now significantly superior then I'm happy to accept your view.

Deluded.

oh damn it's Phuzzy...

Manfredi was the best English winger before his injury, hence why he made it into the Dream Team based on half a season. Sure he might not have cut it for England (because there's no way he'd have been overlooked for selection on that form) but he was still incredible in Super League, and better than Makinson. And I don't agree about Makinson being head and shoulders above Davies either. Makinson is dependable, hard working, safe defensively and an outstanding finisher. Davies is dependable, works even harder, maybe not quite as safe defensively (Makinson is exceptional) but still a strong defender, and is a good finisher (not quite Makinson's standard). Makinson isn't 'head and shoulders' above him at all. He's better, just not by a huge amount.
And Marshall, well he's effectively our 4th choice winger and has received just as much praise as Grace and arguably had a bigger impact for us than Grace has for Saints. Not saying Marshall is great, but you really think Grace is that much better? They're very similar.

Ask any Saints fan about Makinson v Davies. I think Davies has potential to be a top SL winger and better than Makinson. But currently his overall game isn't there. I'd argue it's only a matter of time (if Davies is developed correctly) he'll surpass Makinson. I think on here at times people are deluded due to who they support, hence why a saints fan would laugh at such a suggestion.

I'm very pleased with Davies. Especially considering he's on a winger with either a SR makeshift centre or someone he's barely played with. To add this his pivot is Powell, who does nothing to put Davies in space or create within the structure.
Manfredi was excellent. As I've previously stated on he I thought he was the best winger we had at the club, including Burgess and at the time, Charnley. But he wasn't quite at the level of Hall who's proven not just at club level but on the international stage time and time again. In time could Manfredi have been as good? Probably yes. Sadly it could all be a coulda woulda shoulda with Dom.

I think Grace is better than Marshall. I wish I could watch the game with some of you pointing out and highlighting positional play (in defence) etc with Marshall. Not to mention how he's always good for an unforced error etc.
His speed and acceleration is a joy to watch, but it doesn't overshadow the issues.

You say ask any Saints fan about Makinson v Davies but then say they'd be deluded. What I said in the original post was that Davies wasn't far off Makinson. Having seen Davies this year and last I don't see any reason to suggest he's far from being a top winger (which Makinson is). It's obviously down to opinion, but no way do I buy into that view. The problem Davies has is that he rarely gets to showcase the attacking side of his game because, as you mentioned, there's little space created for Davies. Still, when he's been given opportunities he's generally taken them.

With Manfredi I should have said he was the best English winger 'in Super League' at the time of his injury. That may have been partly to do with Hall not having the same form for Leeds as he shows pretty much every time, but that's not to take away from Manfredi's form. Given the post I replied to was about us not producing quality players compared to Saints I don't think there was anything wrong in my assessment of Manfredi except for missing off that qualifying statement.

As for Marshall, I don't think his positional play is that bad compared to other young wingers who could be considered to be at the same level. And that includes Grace, who isn't immune to the odd positional lapse and error. They both have drawbacks. Marshall is definitely more error prone, but I'd also say that Marshall is a little bit better at creating opportunities for the players around him. I'd also hazard a guess that, having worked hard to improve his defence, Marshall is a little bit better at making his tackles stick compared to Grace, who can be a bit weak in that department.

I actually agree with the meat of your post. Makinson is a better player, but I agree Davies has potential and younger. I read that you thought Manfredi was the best English winger, I disagree with that due to the points raised about Hall, but Manfredi wasn't a million miles away.
I do disagree re-Marshall. For his age, compare his to Tom Johnson, both 22. Johnson is considerably better in all aspects of his game. Or Charnley or Burgess when they were the same age.
Marshall is better at creating chances? In all honesty as a winger, I don't know what you're referring to. Making tackles stick? Again I don't see that at all.

Care to answer or shall I, again, take it you can't?

To use the phrase "ask any Saints fan" is so far removed from any rational argument that I shouldn't even need to mention it. I will though..

As it happens I have no problem with your views. It's the hyperbole you use to express them. So Bateman is not 'as good as' or 'better' than O'Loughlin, the best player we have had at the club in a decade, but he is "far better". Makinson isn't 'more rounded' or 'more experienced' or even 'better', he is 'head and shoulders' better. You don't have to exaggerate a point to make it you know?

For what it's worth my opinion is Makinson, at this point, is slightly the better winger but not by much. Age for age there's no comparison! Davies has, only this season, set a Superleague record for number of metres in a match. That's not just Makinson he's beaten.. or any other winger for that matter.. That's every player who's ever played the game! He's in his first season as first choice winger...