I agree with the majority of your points, Cruncher. The one I'd like to highlight is the mental strength (or rather lack thereof). It's bothered me for some time that we no longer seem to have a sports psychologist on the books - or if we do we need urgently to replace them with someone better. The catastrophic lack of urgency, grit and ability to complete the basic skills well in certain games has led to some dire performances this season even, or possibly especially, when we have had more or less our first choice side available. Yet on some occasions (e.g. the Saints game) that same side has looked really good. They have it in them, and presumably the coaching style doesn't vary dramatically from game to game. Yes, there's the quality of the opposition but Saints are no pushovers now that Holbrook has turned them around. Changes in personnel are needed. and we do need fresh ideas from the coaching side: but I think we also need input from someone who can help the players find that mental steel as well. Yesterday was another "special occasion" game, the club worked hard to get more fans in and, as on similar occasions throughout the season, the players didn't turn up mentally. Frankly, I can't wait for this season to end - and I felt the same last year, though the Grand Final win put a gloss on 2016. I can't see that happening this year.

You can't really rebuild when players have contracts...we are in a tough spot to be fair. Our lack of movements whilst other clubs are building for the future shows how financially tied up we truly are. We are the only club with TWO marquee players for goodness sake, that is laughable. Neither Williams nor Tomkins are producing half of what Gale, Sneyd, Parcell, Houghton are for their respective clubs (and none of those are MARQUEE). I have no proof but I believe we missed out on Sutcliffe because we simply couldn't negotiate, meaning players we have on the books probably aren't willing to move on!

For me the big earners that don't produce (Gelling, Joel T, FPN, Tautai, Tommy L and Micky Mc) need moving along...

I've said pretty much since my first post Gelling needs to go, he is way more of a liabilty than a luxury. A solid, defensive minded #3 is what we need.
I genuinely have no clue whats happened or is happening to Joel Tomkins...wether a full pre-season will help, I guess only time will tell. But the shear volume of his salary could be utiliised elsewhere for sure.
FPN & Tautai are in the same boat, zero impact and mistakes galore, typical Shaun Wane style players IMO. Out played, out worked and out enthused by there opposite numbers 95% of the games played.
Tommy L...he's not a 7, he hasn't improved us at all since Matty Smith left. This is where the bulk of any salary cap needs placing!!!!
Micky Mc...can't fault his enthusiasm and desire but his stats for this season in the games he's played are way of the pace..added to the fact he can't play a full 80...Parcell, Houghton, Daryl Clark, James Roby and even Randell (Wakey) are head & shoulders above him.

However, I genuinely believe Shaun Wane will have sat down with IL and told him, had we not had the "injury crisis" we would already have the top-4 squared away! Leaving it down to KO rugby for the Semi. For our chairman that is probably good enough when you consider we are World Champions and CC Finalists. I guarantee there are zero crisis or even worrying conversations being had at Wigan RL HQ. Therefore, I wouldn't get excited about any rebuilding. We will have the same management, same squad and same game plan next year. After Saints beat Salford and either Hull beat Castleford or Wakefield beat us, I for one will be pleased the season is finally over* but won't be expecting any announcements.

* I say this because I would be scared to actually have to visit the Jungle and play Castleford in a semi-final game they actually need to win!

It has to come from the top down and for me I think it is time we overhauled the entire coaching set up. Wane has probably earned the right to another season to put things right even though personally I think it would be better if he stood down.

For Wane to remain in place however we would need to change the rest of the coaching team.

Jobs for the boys mentality has crept back in, our conditioning which was once the envy of other teams has now been surpassed by most of the other teams, both fitness and our susceptibility to injury.

A real assistant with new ideas needs to come in prefereably from the NRL.

I could go on and on but to be honest I share the same lethargy at the moment as the players seem to share.

Season ticket sales next year will be very interesting.

'"

Again, I don't disagree with any of this. I know we can't just unload a mass of players who are on a good crack for doing nothing and will have no reason to willingly leave.

But there are areas of the team where we can and should start looking to the future.

We definitely need to sort the front row and the halfbacks out. These are crucial areas where we have been noiticeably lacking all season. Tommy is a massive weak link in the chain. If ever there was a time to get the cheque book out it was now in relation to our no. 7 shirt. The same can be said for our props. If it was me, I'd be definitely be looking at moving on at least some of the players both you and I have named at the very first opportunity.

Whether it will happen, or not, I don't know. But IL has never struck me as the kind of chairman who allows his coaches to lead him round by the hand. There is surely no way the club can be sitting back now and pretending there isn't a crisis. (They certainly took drastic action when it became apparent that Nobby was content to sit on his laurels and watch us keep on failing to make the grade).

The worst thing is that Castleford yesterday really reminded me of the Wigan team of the late 80s/early 90s. A bunch of solid, highly skilled professionals, augmented with some real natural talents, who are very fit, excellently drilled and mentally strong enough to easily see out games they don't even need to win. No hot-and-colds in their ranks, no 'best mate' selections, no fly-by-nighters, no 'men of the people' who are mainly there for comedy value. It's more than frustrating to see lessons that we once taught the game being put into expert practise by others, while we ourselves have seemingly sleepwalked into mediocrity.

I agree with all of that, you need to earn the right to move the ball out wide. Sending one up forwards does not test the opposition defence. We had players making yards but no back up so the defence dealt with them easily

Damn. Just typed out a fairly lengthy response then the site crashed on me. Basically, I'm with Jonh and Cruncher (not typing all that again!).

I think he's pretty good at centre to be honest. We are small enough at second row as it is! He is just an easy target for when we are losing, people also tend to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater at these times (e.g criticism of Gildart and Williams also in this thread).

I think a big part of the difference was conditioning. They looked stronger, fitter, faster, and have barely had any injuries this year. We can't overhaul the playing personnel before 2018 (I wouldn't want to anyway, though a proper 7 and 8 would be nice if we didn't have a salary cap) but we can make changes to improve our strength and conditioning, which I think would go a long way to helping us compete with Cas, Leeds and Hull.

Certainly don't think we need to make wholesale changes at all.
First thing to address is acceptance that performance throughout the season has been lower than the requirement.

Does the club management (IL/KR) believe we need to be better next year?
If so, what changes are needed to bring this?

Does the club just accept it the way it is (and that a freak injury period was the major factor)?
Will SW acknowledge that perhaps the tactics employed need to be reviewed, how open to change would he be? I think a few decisions need to be made (and yes I'm saying this even though we still have a remote chance of progressing into the playoffs, possible GF and potential championship win again), we have to be seen to change a few things just to get bums on seats next season.

Supporters are leaving in their droves unfortunately, unimpressed with the week-to-week performances despite final appearances and trophy wins.

I'd hope we'd be a bit more ambitious than looking to bring in either Radford or Chester, top blokes though they both are.

I take your point, but to me, Cas have done this season what Wigan did in 86/87 - raised the standard of the game to a totally new level. I don't want us to be like Saints, whose answer to Graham Lowe was to employ Alex Murphy. I feel we need to see dramatic changes in our playing and coaching staff in order to try and step up to this new mark.

I do agree, though, that we can't just swing an axe and remove all the dead wood in one go. Contracts, and all that. And yes, you're quite right, some of the players may rediscover themselves under a new, more rigorous regime.

I think we have been in a situation over the past 2 years where due to injuries as a team we have not really got going. I think we as fans underestimate the disruption that causes within the squad.

That said I do think we need a change on the coaching front. IMO any coach, however good has a limited shelf life at a single club before the team begins to stagnate and a change is needed. I believe Wane has reached that time and the club is in need of a fresh approach and new ideas. I don't think we need major changes on the playing front though I'd be looking at a new #7 if TL could be persuaded to start his coaching career. I'd also like to see the difference in stats from this set of props under another coach with different tactics as I think they would be significant.

Season ticket sales will be abysmal'"