"They ripped into each other"

Getting pretty sick & tired of hearing the fact we were champions last year, world champions this year and cup finalists as an excuse for the absolute rubbish displays in the last few months...honestly, give it a rest. The team is not playing well, the injuries and subsequent results have knocked confidence and the coaching staff don't look like they have a remedy. It is quite obvious things need changing.

Super League rugby evolves, fast. Coaches are far better equipped now-a-days to see what or who isn't performing and they can usually make the required changes. Shaun Wane doesn't seem to be one of those, for whatever reason, nothing ever seems to change. Same tactics, week in, week out and that can only be down to his stubbornness in outright belief that eventually it will work and we will get a result. He hasn't quite grasped that the other "top" teams have evolved and can see our plays and predictability a mile off!

I've yet to see anything like a positive post from you mate?
You say we haven't evolved and we're predictable but yet we've been consistent enough to make the last 4 grand finals and won 2 of them.
Nobody would have predicted Castleford's rise this season, nor Salford and Wakefield for that matter. Likewise nobody would have predicted Warrington missing the top 8 or Wigan being at the bottom end of it. It's sport and things like that happen. We don't have a given right to win and we have to accept the emergence of other clubs.

None of us are happy with our current position but there are mitigating factors that we have to accept. The injury crisis was unprecedented. We lost our scrum half with a broken jaw, our back up scrum half (Shorrocks) was out for the season, the other back up (Powell) was covering at hooker and we had to play a 17 kid (Woods) who for all the world was never ready. That's just one example of the mitigating factors I'm talking about!

I stand by my earlier comments, with a good pre season and more luck with injuries I'd put my mortgage on us to make next year's grand final.

Spot on. We have been through a terrible injury crisis and may still win two of the top three trophies on offer, whilst avoiding the middle 8s. Change nothing and I still think we will be there or thereabouts next year, injuries permitting.

Your right, you are yet to see a single positive post from me. I only came across the forum by chance and joined in July, correct me if I am wrong but other than scraping into a CC Final has anything positive happened? Until it does. your unlikely to see a positive post from me

All the other clubs, bar maybe Castleford have had injuries too, everyone else has coped. Warrington have issues, I will admit, but things are improving...aside the other clubs, which doesn't interest me, my point is that we never change our game plan, we never have a plan b and we are predictable to the point where the majority of teams can deal with us a lot easier than in the past 2-3 years. When Maguire came, he evolved us, turned us into something special...Wane took over and made a few tweeks to an already good side and kept us going...since then, the other teams have improved significantly and in my opinion, overtaken us tactically and have far superior players on their rosters for a lot less money!

I must also add, no where have I ever stated we deserve to win by just turning up. I love the competitive league, what I don't love is a predictable Wigan that lack flair and the intelligence to change things when we up against it.

Leeds have made several changes and key additions from last year, when they have a fully fit squad, as proven by last week, will 9 out of 10 times beat us.

Castleford lost arguably the best winger in RL, replaced him for less money, made some additions and again, with a fully fit squad to choose from will 10 out of 10 times beat us.

You telling me that by adding Forsyth, Escare, Navarette and Leuluai were quality additions? Was keeping GW as a marquee a good idea, has he repaid any of commitment by us that with improved performances? As champions last year we stood still. We didn't evolve like the rest of the top teams and we are now paying the price for that.

We entirely deserve to be where we are. I too stand by my comments, things need to change.

Apart from Parcell who do you think that Leeds have signed that has significantly improved their squad?

Would you be happy to have Eden before Manfredi, Burgess, Davies and Marshall?

I thought Escare looked a very good signing prior to his injury.

Seriously??? It baffles me that he is about the same age as Liam Sutcliffe, Jordan Lilley, Dec Patton and Danny Richardson. They are all working towards trying to nail down starting shirts in the next few years. George has the top try assists in the league. He has played about 100 games and will be in the running for an England shirt at the end of the year, yet he still has a decade's worth of rugby ahead of him. IMO he is the single most valuable player in the Super League and we did incredibly well to ward off NRL interest.

Hear hear!

I'm really not convinced that we need wholesale changes. A new addition to the squad is always welcome for a new season but some of the comments on here seem way OTT.
We started this season looking fast and slick. Tommy was guiding us around the park and Williams was running riot and tearing teams apart. The injuries kicked in and understandably our standards on the field dropped but the lads who came in deserve great credit for their effort and commitment. Ideally they'd be drip fed into the first team but were thrown in all at once with very little experience around them. We can't lose sight of that and they'll all be better for it.
Forsyth didn't get enough credit for me. Defending in the centre is the hardest place to defend and he did it with aplomb. He showed some good touches too and he now gives us decent, reliable cover in the position.
Marshall, Davies and Wells have all proved themselves to be SL quality and top level cover for injuries. I really hope they all kick on from here.
We just need a bit of luck and a few wins to build the confidence back up and we'll be fine.

Parcell was the key addition I was referring too, the improvement in their play is obvious a full pre-season on working on what was needed. I have always rated McDermott and believe the key difference between him and Wane is that he accepted his job was on the line and knew he needed to change things.

I would have Eden over Burgess any day of the week....yes! Castleford also recruited Sene Lefao and Hardacre and as a team they have improved significantly tactically and defensively.

Your missing my point, we recruited poorly in the off season, if you disagree, then cool. I feel we have given new contracts to players that aren't really top-notch or can really potentially improve whereas the teams around us have. Tactically and defensively we have slipped, massively, that you cannot argue with. We have no real threat on the final plays in & around the opponents try line and our kicking game is shocking!

Eden over Burgess any day of the week?

It's all about opinions but that comment is a clear indication that your opinion isn't worth a carrot! However, I'll humour you.

We recruited Leuluai- a huge improvement on Smith and Burgess - a great addition to the squad having seen Sagrinson leave.

Our half back options have simply been limited because Shorrocks has not been available and Powell has had to cover for MM. If Escare was fit we'd have the option to try Sam in the halves but he's not.

When Leuluai was rumoured to be going to Saints there was real discontent on here that we could allow that to happen. As I've said earlier, Leuluai was really leading us around the pitch in the early part of the season and that allowed Williams to cause havoc. We'll click and when we do I'm sure we'll put a lot of egg on a lot of faces, probably including yours!

Stick Burgess in the Cas team and he'd have scored just as many as Eden, if not more. He's a far better around player.

I actually bloody wrote that!!!!! Then deleted it....your bang on. I was trying to say that as we play so one dimensional, it wouldn't matter if Eden was on the wing.

I prefer Eden to Burgess, but that's my preference. Your is obviously budgie so fair play. No arguments here and my opinion, albeit carrot worthy, is still just that

Wasn't aware of the rumours regards TL and saints so can't comment. I personally wouldnt of kicked up a fuss if he had. I pray for this "click" you mention, and as and when it does happen, I will be sure to post an apologetic, egg-faced, POSITIVE post